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Divorce Support This forum is for discussing the emotional aspects of divorce: stress, anger, betrayal of trust and more.

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  #1  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:09 PM
iona6656 iona6656 is online now
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Default I'm just tired of fighting...Where to find the motivation?

So this is relation to the finances.

When it comes to custody- I will do everything I can to ensure our daughter is safe. I don't care if I spend every last dime and ounce of my energy fighting. But I actually think that that is moving in the right direction...so it's really finances which is what we're about to start fighting for.

My ex basically screwed me over SO hard....lied about joint accounts. Took money I was transferring him and paid all the bills- used his money to build his retirement fund. I paid 100% of the household expenses. I paid all of our daughter's expenses. This story isn't new- the only twist is usually it's usually the woman who is the stay-at-home mom or lower income earner getting screwed and left financially decimated. In this case- surprise!- it's the wife because I was the breadwinner. I trusted my husband. I shouldn't have. I wanted to avoid conflict and getting yelled at. It's a HARD lesson to learn...but learned it, I did.

To be clear though- we both earn very good salaries- I just earn significantly more.


Now- our house has finally sold- and the equity in it is okay- nothing to write home about. ..so I'm left with this question:

I can fight to get a fair equalization payment. Realistically I will likely get anywhere between 30-60k. But I'll spend 20K doing it.

OR I could just cut my losses and start again. I'm 38, I have time to keep building. I have a great job. I just made a major move in my career and the prospects are good. I could build again.

Anger was fueling me before because of the indignity of what he did to me financially. I still can't admit the full extent to anyone in my life- I feel SO ashamed.

BUT...anger is hard to sustain. It's tiring as fuck.

What have you guys done?

What fueled you to push ahead in the finance department? I'm not talking custody or access here- because it's a totally separate issue...


I'm just torn as to what to do. Fight? Or just take my lumps and keep it moving.
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:21 PM
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arabian arabian is offline
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I hear you. I too went through a pretty rough time. Yes I suffered humiliation and HUGE financial loss. I provided financial backing as well as ongoing operating funds when needed for our business.

Anger definitely propelled me to fight my ex with everything I had. At one time I had divorce lawyer, criminal lawyer (for bogus charges ex's g/f tried to lay against me, as well as corporate lawyer and accountants. It certainly wasn't cheap. I will NEVER recover the financial loss I sustained. I am considerably older than you (62) and am looking old age in the face. I do not have a blissful career ahead of me. So our circumstances, apres separation, are somewhat different. All it took was, after ex hid our money and left me in a very bad situation, for the gall of him to have his g/f contact me to offer me money... MY OWN MONEY! The fight was on. I was furious.

You have to decide if it is all worth it. No one can decide that for you. Your ex is by no means financially wiped-out so therefore you could likely have a formidable adversary to spend oodles of money on. Double or triple your estimates for legal. Don't forget all of the other bloodsuckers (real estate agents) when tallying everything up. Probably the biggest consideration is the pure energy of the fight and how attending useless conferences/4-way meetings which the lawyers will try to set up (unless you firmly tell them not to waste your time)... how is this going to affect your current career and family life?

Your ex is a loser. I do sincerely believe the best revenge is to live well.

Yes you will be angry for a very long time. You will hopefully learn to redirect it to something positive.

Oh and don't forget about karma.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:52 PM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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If he accumulated that retirement fund while you were married then you get half so stop worrying about that.

Anger is a normal emotion as is sadness. Donít deny those emotions. Donít let them cloud your judgement either. Some lawyers take advantage of anger and need for revenge which just hurts you.

Definitely get all of his financial information INCLUDING any retirement funds he may have. Just as he is entitled to your pension/rrsp, so too are you to his.

You have support here and you (hopefully) have plenty of good friends and family. Donít be afraid to reach out.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:13 AM
iona6656 iona6656 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
If he accumulated that retirement fund while you were married then you get half so stop worrying about that.

Anger is a normal emotion as is sadness. Donít deny those emotions. Donít let them cloud your judgement either. Some lawyers take advantage of anger and need for revenge which just hurts you.

Definitely get all of his financial information INCLUDING any retirement funds he may have. Just as he is entitled to your pension/rrsp, so too are you to his.

You have support here and you (hopefully) have plenty of good friends and family. Donít be afraid to reach out.
He did acquire them during when we were married (which is less than 5 years coincidently- so there's that factor)...the problem for me is that I paid for the entirety of the wedding in 2014- $75k...which sounds like a lot- but it was a two day event (cultural and religious reasons for this) and had 300 guests. We received 35k back in presents...but I paid the 40k on the understanding that I was buying my equity into his condo where we first lived when we got married. Unfortunately we sold that condo- and it was always in his name....so the problem is that he's subtracted that condos equity from his NFP - to the effect that that's what he brought into the marriage. I paid 90% of the wedding costs BEFORE the actual date of marriage- cause, you know, I didn't want to start our marriage in debt.

Because he gets to subtract the equity in the condo- it makes it seem like our NFPs are equal- they are NOT.

So I would have to argue unjust enrichment or joint family venture for the condo. Which is a tough legal argument and rarely wins. My best bet is to go to mediation/arbitration...

I am extremely lucky in that I have a great family - my parents are letting me live with them rent free. My mom took early retirement to be my daughter's childcare during this period- until she started pre-school. My friends are amazing. My life is 100% better by not being married to him already.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:38 AM
iona6656 iona6656 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post

You have to decide if it is all worth it. No one can decide that for you. Your ex is by no means financially wiped-out so therefore you could likely have a formidable adversary to spend oodles of money on. Double or triple your estimates for legal. Don't forget all of the other bloodsuckers (real estate agents) when tallying everything up. Probably the biggest consideration is the pure energy of the fight and how attending useless conferences/4-way meetings which the lawyers will try to set up (unless you firmly tell them not to waste your time)... how is this going to affect your current career and family life?

Your ex is a loser. I do sincerely believe the best revenge is to live well.

Yes you will be angry for a very long time. You will hopefully learn to redirect it to something positive.

Oh and don't forget about karma.
was it worth it for you?

I'm guessing there is a certain amount of satisfaction and vindication showing what a lying scumbag they are?

But I do think you're right that living well is the best revenge. My life is better right now- it got better right away. I actually have help with my daughter. I've got an amazing therapist. Being attached to him through litigation is actually the downside.

Lastly- about Karma- do you honestly believe in it? did it happen to your ex? I used to believe in it...but if I believe he'll get what is coming to him- I have to equally look at my own life and ask the question of what I did to deserve this? Karma is tricky.
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  #6  
Old 11-21-2018, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
When it comes to custody- I will do everything I can to ensure our daughter is safe.
Unless the CAS, court or similar organization deems the other parent to be a danger to the child the other parent is not "unsafe" for the child. There is a line between bad parenting and "abusive unsafe parenting". Parental perception ranks low on the scoring for CAS. I have posted up the CAS (Ontario) scoring manual for interventions in the past.

You may "feel" the other parent is "unsafe" but, without the support of an independent party or the other parent demonstrating that before the court it is difficult to bring forward the evidence properly.

If you do it out of parental anxiety and not actual "evidence" you will indeed... as you state...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
... spend every last dime and ounce of my energy fighting.
Also, courts have heard it all before. So be very mindful of what you "feel" (hearsay) vs what is actual "evidence". Most litigants cannot separate their feelings from the evidence. Nor are they able to evaluate "the truth". Just because something feels like the truth doesn't make it the truth.

Don't get trapped by your emotions or the other parent's emotions. You have to love the child more than you hate the other parent. Justices have a keen sense of picking up on the "fighting for fighting sake" arguments.

This "all out war" tactic will bankrupt the family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
My ex basically screwed me over SO hard....lied about joint accounts.
The reality is that under rule 13 financial disclosure can expose this pattern of behaviour but, it may not be relevant if it happened during the marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
Took money I was transferring him and paid all the bills- used his money to build his retirement fund. I paid 100% of the household expenses. I paid all of our daughter's expenses. This story isn't new- the only twist is usually it's usually the woman who is the stay-at-home mom or lower income earner getting screwed and left financially decimated.
Again, in the time line of things did this happen before or after the date of seperation. If before you have very little recourse to recouping anything. I am sure your lawyer has explained this very simple fact.

With regards to any money accumulated in an RRSP / pension during the marriage that is in focus for equalization. Its split. Your RRSP and pension will be split. That is what "equalization" is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
In this case- surprise!- it's the wife because I was the breadwinner. I trusted my husband. I shouldn't have. I wanted to avoid conflict and getting yelled at. It's a HARD lesson to learn...but learned it, I did.
What you now have to learn is that if it happened before the date of seperation it really has no value. It is all sunk costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
I can fight to get a fair equalization payment. Realistically I will likely get anywhere between 30-60k. But I'll spend 20K doing it.
Equalization is determined on the date of separation sorry to say. It is based on the factual evidence. You won't get back all the money for the mortgage you paid up to that point. The court starts on the date of separation and moves forward. The court doesn't look back into the relationship and equalize every bill... they won't care who paid for the wedding either. You bring something up like that you will look loonie to a judge. A lawyer (even a crappy one) wouldn't even bring pre-separation expenses forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
OR I could just cut my losses and start again. I'm 38, I have time to keep building. I have a great job. I just made a major move in my career and the prospects are good. I could build again.
Moving on is always better. You won't get any of the sunk costs in the relationship prior to the date of separation. I would drop this kind of stuff like a hot potato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
Anger was fueling me before because of the indignity of what he did to me financially. I still can't admit the full extent to anyone in my life- I feel SO ashamed.
Litigants fueled by anger are generally on the wrong side of orders and end up spending more and losing more. Waging war is not recommended in family court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
I'm just torn as to what to do. Fight? Or just take my lumps and keep it moving.
1. Trust your lawyer.
2. Drop anything financial before the date of separation.
3. Move on emotionally and financially.
4. Stop fighting and start solving problems.
5. You have to compromise on your position to settle the matter. Start thinking about what you are willing to compromise on.
6. If the court is forced to order they will make the decision for you and you may have costs ordered against you.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:01 AM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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You have to accept that there were bad decisions you made financially and move on. My partner left an additional $100,000 on the table. He also didnít fight for the higher valuation of the marital home. He kicks himself for it especially since he walked away to be a bigger person and his ex ended up bad mouthing him anyway. I remind him that his life is better now. He isnít being treated badly, he doesnít have to deal with her bs and he can be happy. He does see that things are better now but also accepts he made poor decisions with his marriage.

Look at it this way, you have your daughter and your freedom. Who knows what lies ahead of you now that you can live your life.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
was it worth it for you?

I'm guessing there is a certain amount of satisfaction and vindication showing what a lying scumbag they are?

But I do think you're right that living well is the best revenge. My life is better right now- it got better right away. I actually have help with my daughter. I've got an amazing therapist. Being attached to him through litigation is actually the downside.

Lastly- about Karma- do you honestly believe in it? did it happen to your ex? I used to believe in it...but if I believe he'll get what is coming to him- I have to equally look at my own life and ask the question of what I did to deserve this? Karma is tricky.
At my age it was a no-brainer. My ex wiped me out financially. Has it been worth it? Yes. Although, my ex (really it is his g/f) take me to court to try to have decision overturned each and every year. As years go on I am bothered less by that. Plus ex and his g/f are really not very bright. They recently sent a letter appealing to provincial chief justice which backfired nicely on them.... kind of sealed the deal as all it accomplished was to bring attention to the previous rulings of "not coming to court with clean hands." LOL I wasn't aware of this until the Chief Justice's legal counsel emailed me their response to my ex. Really very funny.

Oh and karma? Oh yes I do believe in that. My ex and his g/f have suffered numerous significant life-changing things that I will not mention on this public forum.

The whole process has certainly opening my eyes about many things. Notably that people who are married should never go into business with their spouses, no matter how convinced lawyers and accountants are that there is no risk - this is a flat-out lie.
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:09 PM
iona6656 iona6656 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Unless the CAS, court or similar organization deems the other parent to be a danger to the child the other parent is not "unsafe" for the child. There is a line between bad parenting and "abusive unsafe parenting". Parental perception ranks low on the scoring for CAS. I have posted up the CAS (Ontario) scoring manual for interventions in the past.

You may "feel" the other parent is "unsafe" but, without the support of an independent party or the other parent demonstrating that before the court it is difficult to bring forward the evidence properly.

If you do it out of parental anxiety and not actual "evidence" you will indeed... as you state...
So to this- I answer that this isn't me worried about him being a bad parent or making claims that I'm the better or more fit parent. It's me worrying that his impulse control is so poor that he could hurt our daughter in a fit of rage, or something similar. He threatened to kill her when he was angry- a specific and gruesome threat that resulted in him being charged -and entering the early intervention program.

Frankly I don't know that's he's safe or unsafe. I've asked for help to make that determination- and that's why the OCL is involved. And frankly- they were the only ones willing to get involved. In an effort to keep this out of litigation- I called about 13 different individual counselors and agencies (think catholic family services- 'families in transition' programs)- and they all refused to become involved because of the charges against my ex. They said they don't get involved "at this stage". My impression was that basically no one wanted to take responsibility in case he actually did something and they didn't catch it.

I asked for closed psych evaluation and/or a CAMH mental health and addiction assessment. He said nope. I can't force that- so I dropped it.

Finally- I asked for OCL to do the assessment. I know that no one is ever actually going to make me feel like he's 100% safe with her. BUT that he's completed PARs and some anger management counselling makes me feel better. It's all I can reasonably ask or hope for. I'm not taking it to a custody battle on whether or not I think I'm the better parent.

When I say I'll fight- I mean I'll keep paying crazy amounts of legal fees and other professional fees until we can work on a gradual and integrated parenting plan to ensure that our daughter is well cared for. She's a toddler- she has special needs because of her health. Those have to be accounted for...so yes- I will continue to ensure that her best interests are actually protected. And that includes the preservation of relationship and shared parenting with her dad.

I just want to make sure he doens't lose his shit and hurt her. It's as frank as that.

Quote:

1. Trust your lawyer.
2. Drop anything financial before the date of separation.
3. Move on emotionally and financially.
4. Stop fighting and start solving problems.
5. You have to compromise on your position to settle the matter. Start thinking about what you are willing to compromise on.
6. If the court is forced to order they will make the decision for you and you may have costs ordered against you.

Good Luck!
Tayken
Thanks.

At this point- I will probably just fight for 1. child support arrears. 2. fair NFPs based on some shady calculations by his lawyer (like using Contingent tax liabilities of 20% when it should be 10%) - stuff like that.

If we go to a mediation/arbitration- I will bring up the wedding costs - only to show that he can't subtract the worth of the condo from his NFP because we had an agreement (verbal- confirmed by emails) that I was buying my equity into the condo by paying for the wedding- so the condo should be treated as matrimonial property and NOT allowed to be subtracted from his NFP. But if he won't participate in a mediation/arbitration...then I dunno. I'll probably just eat it and move on.
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Old 11-22-2018, 12:55 PM
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You may be tired because you're fighting emotionally instead of business like. You're focusing on irrelevant issues while ignoring the law.

Equalization is straight math based on the relevant evidence. There really shouldn't be anything to fight with here.

Custody and Access is your only fight, and you seem to be ok with joint custody and shared access. Your ex messed up saying some stuff and is paying for it. But he started the application and is fighting to be a shared parent. If he's done his anger management/par counseling, been through supervised access, ocl is finished there investigating, then there really isn't much left. You'll have to get over your anxiety and begin sharing your child; which will most likely include you paying support.
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