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  • #16
    Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
    She just turned 16. I realize that she can decide just not to go over there but since she's under 18, I'll probably still have to get a court order or else he'll be calling the cops to my door every other day and she doesn't need that stress. I'm trying to minimize the tug-of-war that she's trying to negotiate between warring parents.

    What was odd about this past weekend was that usually when we talk about her issues with her dad, I try to lay out all the options to her, explain what each would entail and then tell her to think about it and decide how she wants to proceed. What generally happens is that things will maybe calm down a bit (i think) and she has never really made a decision. The last 2 incidences where she's gotten a little teary eyed (and she's not a crier) have been within the last 3 months which is an escalation and this last 3rd incident, she was full-out panicked to the point where when I asked her if she just wanted to me to do something...she took a second and then nodded her head...that's new. Usually she says she doesn't want me to do anything now but she'll think about it.

    Also, if I get a court order and its on paper, he's more likely to behave and it may improve their relationship for the long-term because he'll know he can't just do anything he wants while she's in his care. I just don't see any other options and I'm not going to sit idly by any longer while he verbally abuses our child. I'm already kicking myself that I may not have taken this seriously enough. Its really tough when you're trying to give the other parent the benefit of the doubt and not be nosy about their discipline methods on their parenting time.

    My instincts are just screaming that he's behavior is getting to the point where she can't handle it anymore. And again, it wouldn't be out of his historical character.
    Hello, my daughter was 15 when she decided to stop residing with her father 50/50. Her reasons were legitimate, he simply did not provide a suitable environment to raise a young girl. So I let her. He sought legal advise and was told that there was nothing he could do about it at that age. She is now 18 and sees her father a few days a month and on vacation.

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    • #17
      I'm going to be pulling the trigger on this action right after the holidays.

      Thinking through it, I'm going to arrange the timing to have the motion sent on my parenting time and then inform him that she wants to stay at my house until the motion is heard. That way, she's protected from his inevitable blow up. I'm sure I'm going to be dealing with police at my door and I'll have to prepare her for all of that. I'll have to let my lawyer know that I will be in contempt of the custody order per my daughter's request and she what she advises me on that. The last thing I want to do is piss off a judge but I also can't allow my kid to be in the line of fire when he freaks out.

      I'll also inform her school of what's going on, they already have a copy of the existing custody order.

      The problem in doing all of this is that there is no halfway here. I always prepare to have a more compromised, reasonable approach but if I don't go all out, it opens the door for problems.

      Today, I sent a note letting him know that he could pick her up at 1pm on Xmas day and that the following week, I'd pick her up from his house at the same time the following week. He sent me an email that said that he will comply with the 1pm time but he can have her at whatever time he wants and I should be asking permission for NY's because the court order doesn't specify a time. So next time, I need to ask and say please...not just tell him what time I'm going to pick her up.

      I didn't bother to respond but lets just say that I'm really getting sick of dealing with rudeness and idiocy.

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      • #18
        Good on you. It sounds like you've thought this through in great detail (advising your lawyer, preparing for the police to turn up, advising the school, etc), and it's been a long time coming. I admire that you've worked hard to keep a "judgment-free zone" in your house, but it sounds like you have correctly assessed that stronger action now needs to be taken, after years of no change from the ex. Good luck.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ele110 View Post
          Hello, my daughter was 15 when she decided to stop residing with her father 50/50. Her reasons were legitimate, he simply did not provide a '. So I let her. He sought legal advise and was told that there was nothing he could do about it at that age. She is now 18 and sees her father a few days a month and on vacation.
          Can you elaborate about the "suitable environment"
          Last edited by Links17; 12-24-2015, 12:22 PM.

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          • #20
            So I saw my lawyer today. I told her the issues and that I had 2 main concerns for taking any action to change the custody order:

            1. I wanted my daughter to be safe and out of the line of fire when her dad goes ballistic when I file a motion and 2. I want to allow my daughter to have as much control over the situation as possible.

            So her recommendation is that I don't file a motion at all but just tell my daughter that she can stop going over there when she's had enough of his behavior.

            Once that happens, he'll be forced to take action to file a contempt motion and my duty will be to provide an affidavit from our daughter as to why she doesn't want to go to her dad's house due to his temper. In the short-term, I may have to deal with the cops being called to my house but my lawyer verified that they wont really do much except verify that my daughter isn't being kept from seeing her dad by me.

            She also suggested that once he files the contempt motion, that I may want to take my daughter to a therapist for evidence. Luckily, when we went for our custody evaluation during the divorce, we had a notable psychiatrist who made the custody determination and was actually picked by his attorney, not mine which would show that a) its someone we used before and b) that its not a biased pick by me. To add fuel to the fire, my ex ended up going apeshit on this therapist at the wrap-up appointment because he didn't get sole custody. The only thing that saved my ex's bacon was that at the time, my daughter was adamant that she wanted to spend time with both parents.

            The other problem my ex is going to have is that he's now on his 5th lawyer. The last two lawyers he got, he couldn't find in the city...he had to go 2 hours to London because he had a major fight with his 2nd lawyer and reported him/made a complaint to the Legal oversite group. The lawyers he had would only deal with financial issues...he's going to have to find someone to handle this custody issue (which won't be leaning in his favor). My ex doesn't do well in court. He's obnoxious and gets angry and shouts stuff out in the middle of the proceedings.

            Anyway, I came home today and told my daughter the options she has. I told her that anytime she wanted to, she simply doesn't have to go there anymore and I'd handle it from that point. She asked me when she should tell her dad that she won't be going to the university that he wants her to attend and I told her that she can do that whenever she wants but that I'd prefer that she did it by phone or email because I don't want her in front of him when he blows his stack. If he blows his stack on the phone, she can hang up and I would handle sending him the email about her not going over there until he calms down.

            The only complication that I have is that I'm really not sure if he's ever going to calm down. Our divorce literally made him way more nuts than he used to be. He's constantly seething which is why all this is going on in the first place.

            I've explained to my daughter that we'll just have to go day-by-day and see how things go but I'm just worried that this will end up at least semi-permanently severing the relationship with her father. I can tell you that there's no way I'm going to advocate her going over there until I'm absolutely sure she's safe.

            Any thoughts?

            Comment


            • #21
              I do like that your daughter is involved in some part. Makes her somewhat accountable and knowledgeable about her decisions. Sucks that kids have to go through this but it is a life-learning experience for her.

              I was married to a "shouter" so I think I know what you may be going through. Like me, you probably spent many years (while with him) trying to "keep the peace." It's a hard pattern to break - impossible while you are still together.

              Good for you for consulting with your lawyer and getting some sound advice.

              Comment


              • #22
                Would it help her to be in counselling now to give her a place to talk about how she feels and to learn some strategies to deal with difficult people?

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                • #23
                  PH - your ex is in your region/location correct?

                  I’d likely draft an email to the ex now in an attempt to deflect his anger, advising him moving away with her on high school graduation isn’t an option; asking for discussion between the two of you as to future s7 university and costs, planning, and include the kidlet’s top 3 choices and options. I’d ask that the 2 parents should discuss, before kidlet becomes involved. That should take the immediate moving plans/university discussion/issue and any hostility off the table for her, and lay it squarely on your shoulders.

                  And if kidlet decides to take a break from the regular schedule because of the stress, the break doesn’t need to sever the relationship. If it comes to that, you could suggest that they meet at restaurants for brunch, or dinner/movie – public locations where he can’t blow his stack, and hopefully she won’t feel like she’s under duress, but their lines of communication are still open.
                  Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Your lawyers advice seems good and the whole plan seems reasonable in the context actually.

                    2 things -
                    When i was in court last, I told the judge about the incidents between my ex and the kids (hitting, throwing knife etc...). I felt very bad about doing it because I was worried she was going to take retribution against them but instead she told them that night "I am mad, but not mad at you" which I am sure she only did because somehow she realized how crazy she seemed and maybe she realized what an animal she was an at least in this incident she backed down. She had threatened to punish my kids if they told me what happened so this was a positive outcome.
                    ---If you approach this in the right way you might get that spark of discovery from your ex, unlikely but maybe

                    Secondly, can I suggest "if you want" to approach this from a more "I am trying to help you perspective to your ex". Basically, lay all the cards on the table about school, changing her living arrangement and tell him that he can choose to accept and change or not change and you will do exactly what you've been proposed by lawyer and he will lose his daughter.

                    If your ex is a tyrant as you say, I wouldn't put my kids there to deal with him. These people are abnormal personality disordered that nobody should have the misfortune of dealing with - exposing your kid to it unnecessary seems like an "unnecessary" lesson of life - like telling your kid go live in the ghetto and not get shot to learn the lessons of life.

                    On the other hand, you can play the whole situation differently, get sole custody and let your ex go screw himself.

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                    • #25
                      I was married to a "shouter" so I think I know what you may be going through. Like me, you probably spent many years (while with him) trying to "keep the peace."
                      It isn't just the shouting, its that he also belittles whomever he's shouting at. He will list all the things that are wrong with you, your relatives, etc. Its a constant barrage of insults. I dealt with it because I'm an adult and would simply walk away but our kid is a teenager.

                      In addition, she also finally told me after a couple years of visitation that he yells about me too. Calling me every name in the book, talking about my partner, etc. So on top of him insulting her, she has to listen to him insult me and my new partner...whom she cares about.

                      Would it help her to be in counselling now to give her a place to talk about how she feels and to learn some strategies to deal with difficult people?
                      I've brought up counselling to her on a number of occasions and even told her that I'd go with her or my partner and I would go or I could ask her sister to go and she completely refuses to go. She's honestly showing no real behavioral issues such as loss of appetite or school issues. She's a straight A, well-behaved kid. So I'm trying to let her make her own choices. I'm not going to drag her to therapy if she doesn't want to go.

                      In addition, my lawyer is concerned that if I take her to therapy without at least notifying her dad, it could be construed as biased before he files any type of motion. Like maybe I planned to remove his custody and alienated my kid using a therapist.

                      The problem is that if I let him know that I'm taking her to a therapist, it opens up a window for him to interrogate her about what she's talking about. He's very, very paranoid. So he'll consider it a plot against him and take it out on her. So I'm only going to take her to therapy, if she agrees once he files a contempt motion and I'll simply tell the court that I was concerned for her emotional state once the court action started and she was in my care 100% of the time so I took action. I have sole custody so I can make certain determinations about her health care.

                      PH - your ex is in your region/location correct?
                      Yes...we live about a mile apart.

                      I’d likely draft an email to the ex now in an attempt to deflect his anger, advising him moving away with her on high school graduation isn’t an option; asking for discussion between the two of you as to future s7 university and costs, planning, and include the kidlet’s top 3 choices and options. I’d ask that the 2 parents should discuss, before kidlet becomes involved. That should take the immediate moving plans/university discussion/issue and any hostility off the table for her, and lay it squarely on your shoulders.
                      lol, this sounds very reasonable. The problem is that my ex is a total nutbag. The last time I sent a note to him...very reasonably telling him that our kid was having some issues with his style of "discipline", he probably broke the W on his keyboard calling me a stupid whore (and slut, bitch, etc) for 5 paragraphs. If I sent you the email, you'd learn some new words for your next monster truck rally.

                      (Yes, I have the emails saved).

                      So we don't have parenting discussions at all. Never have and never will.

                      Our daughter is 16 year old and she needs to learn how to negotiate the relationship with her dad from a safe environment or decide ultimately to cut him off. She told me today that she'll tell her dad herself about the university decision but she's doing it from my home and then she's likely not going to be going back to his house for some time. I don't know if she's planning to call him or email him but I think email would be better because if he flips out, she'll have a record of it. I probably should offer to send the email myself but I'm not really sure if she'll want me to. Its almost like she's getting ready to stand up to him.

                      Believe me, I'm not afraid of him and find his emails to me rather amusing. He's not a very creative guy but he's a Picasso at putting together swear words to call me so I have no problem with sending a polite email to him doing the explaining. I will definitely present the option to her.

                      And if kidlet decides to take a break from the regular schedule because of the stress, the break doesn’t need to sever the relationship. If it comes to that, you could suggest that they meet at restaurants for brunch, or dinner/movie – public locations where he can’t blow his stack, and hopefully she won’t feel like she’s under duress, but their lines of communication are still open.
                      Its a good suggestion and I told her she can call him regularly to get a bead on how he's doing. The problem is he's erratic and she's afraid. She told me exactly that.

                      Also, he has a history...he did this with our first daughter. Once she got into her 20s, she completely stopped talking to him at all.

                      He regularly tells my family that I turned her into a bitch like me.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        ---If you approach this in the right way you might get that spark of discovery from your ex, unlikely but maybe
                        I've discussed this with my daughter. That doing this may make her dad realize that both he and I have standards to live up to as parents. It doesn't mean he can't discipline her, he can and should but it means he can't verbally abuse her. This action may make him reconsider his behavior.

                        I've also told her that this may cause long-term issues with her dad that won't be fixable. I cannot pretend to be able to predict my ex's behavior.

                        He has a history here that isn't good. He believes himself to be above reproach and he takes any constructive criticism in a very negative way and gets defensive and angry. He's gotten a lot worse in this regard since the divorce.

                        But you're right...anything is possible and the ideal situation would be for her to have a better relationship with her dad. But my concern is now only for her safety and emotional welfare. What he does, at this point, is up to him.

                        Secondly, can I suggest "if you want" to approach this from a more "I am trying to help you perspective to your ex". Basically, lay all the cards on the table about school, changing her living arrangement and tell him that he can choose to accept and change or not change and you will do exactly what you've been proposed by lawyer and he will lose his daughter.
                        I sent him an email just like this and if you saw the response, you'd get why this suggestion wouldn't work. Believe me, I'm not trying to cause this situation, I'm reacting to it.

                        He's not just had warnings from me, by the way, he's been told by judges, the custody evaluator and more than one of his lawyers.

                        If your ex is a tyrant as you say, I wouldn't put my kids there to deal with him. These people are abnormal personality disordered that nobody should have the misfortune of dealing with - exposing your kid to it unnecessary seems like an "unnecessary" lesson of life - like telling your kid go live in the ghetto and not get shot to learn the lessons of life.

                        On the other hand, you can play the whole situation differently, get sole custody and let your ex go screw himself.
                        I really was trying not to be too heavy handed here because my prediction is that long-term my kid is not going to want to be around her dad much and that has to be something she does and comes to term with. I do not want to interfere to the point where I've caused her to lose the relationship with her father and she resents me. I'm dealing with a teenage girl and I want to make sure I empower her and give her the tools she needs to deal with this without controlling or manipulating the situation in a way that she's not fully on-board with. Basically, I don't want anything that happens here to come back and bite me in the butt...its bad enough that I managed to pick this wingnut to have kids with in the first place.

                        I need to protect her...which is what I'm going to do...but I also need to make sure she has a voice in what happens. She's 16 and she's pretty clever. So far, she's made very methodical, rational decisions and I'm trusting her to continue. What she seems to be looking to me for is a safe environment where she's not at his mercy to be verbally abused and I'm going to provide that for her.

                        I really do feel like I'm walking a tightrope.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          It's very mature of her to decide to tell him herself. Email may be the best option so she can carefully write out what she wants to say and how and take some time to review before hitting send. It may be easier for her to get it all out in an email rather than a conversation that could be easily derailed if he has a fit. Plus it's documented.

                          On therapy, she may not want to go now, especially of she doesn't feel she's having issues. I can understand the perspective of it being biased if you take her. At her age she doesn't need parental consent for counselling or treatment for anything so maybe make all the information available to her and encourage her to go to counselling on her own if and when she's ready. She may decide to do it on her own and that's never a bad thing.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
                            lol, this sounds very reasonable. The problem is that my ex is a total nutbag. The last time I sent a note to him...very reasonably telling him that our kid was having some issues with his style of "discipline", he probably broke the W on his keyboard calling me a stupid whore (and slut, bitch, etc) for 5 paragraphs. If I sent you the email, you'd learn some new words for your next monster truck rally.
                            Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
                            Also, he has a history...he did this with our first daughter. Once she got into her 20s, she completely stopped talking to him at all.
                            He regularly tells my family that I turned her into a bitch like me.
                            What a shame, but we can’t fix the angry people in the world. He’ll claim you’ve alienated her, I suppose, instead of honestly evaluating his relationship(s) with his children.

                            Teaching her how to handle his anger and, if necessary, cut off the relationship for her own self-preservation until further notice may be what is required. She sounds like a very intelligent, mature young lady! You are on the right track, in supporting her come to a conclusion in her own manner.
                            Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              It's very mature of her to decide to tell him herself. Email may be the best option so she can carefully write out what she wants to say and how and take some time to review before hitting send. It may be easier for her to get it all out in an email rather than a conversation that could be easily derailed if he has a fit. Plus it's documented.
                              I didn't sleep very well last night and I thought about me sending the email or her sending it.

                              I came to the conclusion that if I send it, there is zero chance he's going to read it with any thought and he'll see it as an attack. I will still offer to do it if she's afraid but it might be better coming from her because it may be softer and he may read it and be more insightful about dealing with it.

                              I'm going to try to prepare her for the eventualities though which may be him firing off a very hateful email to her. I don't want her to be blindsided by that possibility because its going to be hurtful if that's what he does.
                              On therapy, she may not want to go now, especially of she doesn't feel she's having issues. I can understand the perspective of it being biased if you take her. At her age she doesn't need parental consent for counselling or treatment for anything so maybe make all the information available to her and encourage her to go to counselling on her own if and when she's ready. She may decide to do it on her own and that's never a bad thing.
                              I will continue to offer therapy to her. The good news is that she does have a good support system of people to talk to. She talks to me about some topics but I can tell she leaves off the part where her father has talked about me and my partner to not get us upset. I'm also going to ask her sister to talk to her...they are very close so that might help too.

                              What a shame, but we can’t fix the angry people in the world. He’ll claim you’ve alienated her, I suppose, instead of honestly evaluating his relationship(s) with his children.
                              One thing that's very consistent with my ex is that nothing that ever happens is his fault. He will never take responsibility for anything that happens and always finds a way to blame it on something or someone else.

                              He has a very repeated theme of talking about how he's been disenfranchised by the world.

                              I'll never forget the time he got a speeding ticket because he was driving 85 in a 60 and called me to yell at me about it being my fault because I made him live in Canada. In the States, the cops would have never pulled him over for only 25 kms.

                              Teaching her how to handle his anger and, if necessary, cut off the relationship for her own self-preservation until further notice may be what is required. She sounds like a very intelligent, mature young lady! You are on the right track, in supporting her come to a conclusion in her own manner.
                              Thank you very much. She is a really good kid. And all kids have stuff to deal with. Its the tough stuff in life that makes you who you are. I'm watching her go through this and I'm really proud of how fair, patient and thoughtful she's being. I'm also watching her become resolved about what she's going to have to do and that's heartening too. I want her to be able to have the strength to stand up to a bully.

                              One question I have is because she currently takes the bus back and forth to my house from school, there's a chance when this happens that her dad might try to intercept her and just pick her up from school. Obviously, she's going to have to tell him that she's just going to take the bus home and not get in the car but should I let the school know that there's a conflict going on.

                              I wasn't going to because there's very little they can do about anything...he's her dad and has the right to go to her school if he wants to but I'm wondering if I should at least give them a head's up.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If he went to her school, made a scene and embarrassed her, she would likely be even more resolved to stick up for herself and not tolerate his behaviour any more.

                                Your daughter sounds sweet, smart and gentle. She doesn't have to put up with the mental abuse from her father. You are doing the right thing teaching her to cope and to make difficult and mature decisions for herself.

                                Comment

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