Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > Divorce & Family Law

Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:21 AM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 524
iona6656 is on a distinguished road
Default What happen's after an OCL report is disputed?

My ex has or is filing notice of dispute the report in our matter. Rule 21 of the Family Law Rules only sets out the process and timelines by which the parties must file a notice of dispute.

The case law I've reviewed- in a nutshell- say that OCL recommendations should not be used on an interim basis- that they should be implemented only after a trial.

There is also a Pazaratz decision that discusses a disputed report here: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...ocompletePos=1

Looks like they tested both reports at trial.

BUT - what's the actual process that the OCL uses? Does anyone know? Do they go back and review the report and make a decision on whether they will amend it? or reconsider? I cannot find anything on their website as to the process. I've called and left a message with an OCL supervisor.

I guess my question is- once a notice of dispute to an OCL report is filed- does it 100% mean we're going to trial?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:34 AM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 524
iona6656 is on a distinguished road
Default

also- just to be totally clear.

I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GO. TO. TRIAL.


but I'm feeling like I have no option. As I said before- I'm not planning to take the report and run. I've told my ex this in co-parent counselling- so that he'll try to be reasonable and come to the table on some compromise. But maybe that's where I effed up? I should just take the report and go?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:44 AM
StillPaying StillPaying is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 171
StillPaying is on a distinguished road
Default

Once an application is made, you're going to trial regardless. Nothing has changed with the report. It'll just be another witness called and evidence argued at trial.

As your ex brought the application, you really have no control over trial unless you both can come to an agreement. You say you don't want trial, and I agree with you, but your offer made court the only option for ex. Hopefully he doesn't sell himself short in his counter offer next week, as I truly believe he'll get 50/50 at court.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-15-2019, 11:31 AM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 524
iona6656 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillPaying View Post
Hopefully he doesn't sell himself short in his counter offer next week, as I truly believe he'll get 50/50 at court.
okay- I'm going to bite. what makes you think he'll get 50/50 at court? I'm not trying to argue a position here- I'm trying to see how it could end up with him getting 50/50 now?

Here's where we stand.

child is 2.5 years old.

There is a history of domestic violence- including verbal abuse physical violence admitted through the report- and admitted in co-parent counselling. Which- yes,we both agreed to have the counselling be closed- but that privilege can be waived and the counselors notes subpoenaed if necessary.

At least twice- applicant dad has used child in violence as a means of threat against respondent mom. One of those times included a threat to kill the child, and included an assault on mother. As a result he was charged. Plead guilty in order to enter the early intervention program. Father completed PARs and said he would complete at minimum 10 sessions of individual counselling. He completed 8. When the investigator spoke to Father's therapist, therapist said she can remember him saying he was remorseful about the threat to his wife and it was impulsive. When she was asked about his threat to his daughter, therapist reported she didn't know about this, she didn't remember him sharing this with her. Therapist said in light of this information, she suggests dad continue with therapy to address this aspect of
his therapy.

Report basically said her impression was that dad minimized the violence- and doesn't have a plan on how to handle his anger in the future, and that toddlers can be challenging. And that there are too many high risk indicators to remove supervision at this time. Mom should continue to have primary residence as she has been primary care giver. Child is thriving- and enjoys good relationship with both parents.

Now- the non-violence stuff.

2.5 year old has only ever been cared for by mom or grandmother.

OCL report finds dad has a more relaxed approach to caring for allergies. child's allergist said allergies are really bad- laissez faire approach is not recommended. Allergist thinks OIT (therapy for allergy treatment) is good for child.

child's doctor and dermatologist told investigator that child's atopic dermatitis is really bad, needs constant supervision and control...but is currently managed well.


Kid is thriving.


Mom's position- let sole custody stand (for now), work with co-parent counsellor and have dad work on his own therapy to manage anger- once his therapist says "he's good" (therapist to tell lawyers- not mom)- remove supervision. Keep increasing access every couple of months- including overnights.

If everything goes well - reassess custody and access, without material change, when child is 7. I'd be okay with 4 or 5 even. But 7 is what my lawyer recommended.

^ that's my legal position. In reality- if dad really owned his shit- just said once "Yeah, you know- that was really really bad. I know I lost it- I would never hurt D2. And I'll keep working on it- I'll start AA, and keep working with my therapist"- why the hell wouldn't I want our daughter to have the benefit of both parents in her life 50/50? And no, I don't want child support- nor do I care about set-off CS- I'd be paying him like $200/mth. I don't care about that. I'll pay $200 NOW if he'd just own his shit and get some help.

I just honestly can't just accept 50/50 at this stage because, while I know he's okay 99.5% of the time, that 0.05%- when he's frustrated- all bets are off. If he's had too much to drink- or too much to smoke (weed does NOT chill him out)- he's totally unpredictable. He breaks shit- he threatens violence. He's not only done it to me- he's done it to his sister too. I am not okay with our daughter being in that situation. So why is EOW okay then? Because it's not that hard to take care of a high needs toddler for a short amount of time- it's not THAT stressful. But to do it on an ongoing basis- it IS stressful. And unless I know he can handle that stress without losing his shit on her- I am not okay with her being with him 50/50.

Dad's position- joint custody with 50/50 shared custody. He wants child to have two homes - understandable. Feels he's addressed his anger issues- and trigger is removed now and is less stressed so he doesn't smoke weed anymore. Doesn't feel AA is necessary. Will attend further counselling if OCL report recommends it. (it does).

What am I missing here?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:20 PM
Mom 2 Two Mom 2 Two is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 387
Mom 2 Two is on a distinguished road
Default

Your not missing anything... I agree with you. He will not get 50/50...

As for disputed report from OCL. I asked my clinician this after my final phone call this last Saturday.

She said lots of people dispute. As long as the recommendations are backed by facts from your collaterals... and the childís safety and best interests are also backed up by facts a disputed report means nothing. She told me to hold this report. And that in the future you can use it showing that your ex didnít do any of the recommendations. If of course he didnít follow them. She believed for sure I will be back in court in two years as she can already tell that if my ex doesnít do something now to repair his relationship with his kids that our kids will eventually refuse to go. She is basing this off of what the kids tell her about how dad parents and treats them while in his care.

DV is real and I think you still fear your ex... your child is young... do not give in to 50/50. Someone already thought he needed supervised visitations. That speaks volumes to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:20 PM
Janus's Avatar
Janus Janus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,010
Janus will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
What am I missing here?

Nothing. You have positions grounded with evidence. Based upon what you have said here, I think stillpaying is incorrect.


As to your original question, which process are you referring to? Dealing with a disputed report? Why would they have a process, would that not be handled by the courts?


The previous paragraph is a long way of saying: "I dunno"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:40 PM
StillPaying StillPaying is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 171
StillPaying is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
okay- I'm going to bite. what makes you think he'll get 50/50 at court? I'm not trying to argue a position here- I'm trying to see how it could end up with him getting 50/50 now?
50/50 would be gradual over a short period, much shorter than 5 years.

Quote:
Here's where we stand.

child is 2.5 years old.

There is a history of domestic violence- including verbal abuse physical violence admitted through the report- and admitted in co-parent counselling. Which- yes,we both agreed to have the counselling be closed- but that privilege can be waived and the counselors notes subpoenaed if necessary.

At least twice- applicant dad has used child in violence as a means of threat against respondent mom. One of those times included a threat to kill the child, and included an assault on mother. As a result he was charged. Plead guilty in order to enter the early intervention program. Father completed PARs and said he would complete at minimum 10 sessions of individual counselling. He completed 8. When the investigator spoke to Father's therapist, therapist said she can remember him saying he was remorseful about the threat to his wife and it was impulsive. When she was asked about his threat to his daughter, therapist reported she didn't know about this, she didn't remember him sharing this with her. Therapist said in light of this information, she suggests dad continue with therapy to address this aspect of
his therapy.

Report basically said her impression was that dad minimized the violence- and doesn't have a plan on how to handle his anger in the future, and that toddlers can be challenging. And that there are too many high risk indicators to remove supervision at this time. Mom should continue to have primary residence as she has been primary care giver. Child is thriving- and enjoys good relationship with both parents.
All of that is what you emotionally feel. The court would see it as you two are no longer together, problem solved. You say ex admitted to it and did all his punishment and counseling, but you feel it's not enough. I really don't think the judge would see it like that. Ex was bad, fixed it, and has been fighting for his child ever since. Child deserves both parents.

Quote:
Now- the non-violence stuff.

2.5 year old has only ever been cared for by mom or grandmother.
Dad will easily argue this.

Quote:
OCL report finds dad has a more relaxed approach to caring for allergies. child's allergist said allergies are really bad- laissez faire approach is not recommended. Allergist thinks OIT (therapy for allergy treatment) is good for child.

child's doctor and dermatologist told investigator that child's atopic dermatitis is really bad, needs constant supervision and control...but is currently managed well.


Kid is thriving.
Your ex can give medication when needed. The fact that you feel he can't is irrelevant.

Quote:
Mom's position- let sole custody stand (for now), work with co-parent counsellor and have dad work on his own therapy to manage anger- once his therapist says "he's good" (therapist to tell lawyers- not mom)- remove supervision. Keep increasing access every couple of months- including overnights.

If everything goes well - reassess custody and access, without material change, when child is 7. I'd be okay with 4 or 5 even. But 7 is what my lawyer recommended.
You'll see a lot of orders go from eow to 50/50 once child starts school full time. You want to wait an extra 3 years so you can establish more status quo. This wouldn't work.


Quote:
^ that's my legal position. In reality- if dad really owned his shit- just said once "Yeah, you know- that was really really bad. I know I lost it- I would never hurt D2. And I'll keep working on it- I'll start AA, and keep working with my therapist"- why the hell wouldn't I want our daughter to have the benefit of both parents in her life 50/50? And no, I don't want child support- nor do I care about set-off CS- I'd be paying him like $200/mth. I don't care about that. I'll pay $200 NOW if he'd just own his shit and get some help.
You already went after cs, so you do want it. However you also know that it'd be you paying offset.

Quote:
I just honestly can't just accept 50/50 at this stage because, while I know he's okay 99.5% of the time, that 0.05%- when he's frustrated- all bets are off. If he's had too much to drink- or too much to smoke (weed does NOT chill him out)- he's totally unpredictable. He breaks shit- he threatens violence. He's not only done it to me- he's done it to his sister too. I am not okay with our daughter being in that situation. So why is EOW okay then? Because it's not that hard to take care of a high needs toddler for a short amount of time- it's not THAT stressful. But to do it on an ongoing basis- it IS stressful. And unless I know he can handle that stress without losing his shit on her- I am not okay with her being with him 50/50.
With that logic, a 223 schedule would work and a judge would agree with you.

Quote:
Dad's position- joint custody with 50/50 shared custody. He wants child to have two homes - understandable. Feels he's addressed his anger issues- and trigger is removed now and is less stressed so he doesn't smoke weed anymore. Doesn't feel AA is necessary. Will attend further counselling if OCL report recommends it. (it does).
Sounds reasonable to me. It'll be a progression, not right away, but that's what he'll most likely get.

Quote:
What am I missing here?
Everything. Your case is very typical, and you are filled with emotions on how you think things should go.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:17 PM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 524
iona6656 is on a distinguished road
Default

^stillpaying- your logic is everything I'm afraid of happening in court. It just takes one judge to see things the way you see it. Which is why I'll keep sending offers and trying to settle this. I disagree with your broad strokes statements on a lot of things in your response.

The way I see it- what will happen will be based on the best evidence we both can present in court. And credibility. Courts love credibility. Luckily- to date, I've overestimated my ex's ability to hide his batshit control issues in front of others. He couldn't hide it from the CAS, the first jointly agreed on mediator, our current co-parent therapist, and the OCL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janus View Post
As to your original question, which process are you referring to? Dealing with a disputed report? Why would they have a process, would that not be handled by the courts?
Yeah- dealing with a disputed report. I wanted to know if there was a legislated or prescribed process by which they re-evaluate the report. i.e. they will review dispute and provide written response within 30 days, etc etc.

I got my answer. I called the OCL and spoke with a supervisor. Once they receive a notice of dispute- they will look at it to see if there are factual errors, or if there are clarifications necessary. There is no formal process for this review. There is nothing the other party is asked to submit. They will provide a response and copy both parties.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:33 PM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 524
iona6656 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom 2 Two View Post
Your not missing anything... I agree with you. He will not get 50/50...

As for disputed report from OCL. I asked my clinician this after my final phone call this last Saturday.

She said lots of people dispute. As long as the recommendations are backed by facts from your collaterals... and the childís safety and best interests are also backed up by facts a disputed report means nothing. She told me to hold this report. And that in the future you can use it showing that your ex didnít do any of the recommendations. If of course he didnít follow them. She believed for sure I will be back in court in two years as she can already tell that if my ex doesnít do something now to repair his relationship with his kids that our kids will eventually refuse to go. She is basing this off of what the kids tell her about how dad parents and treats them while in his care.

DV is real and I think you still fear your ex... your child is young... do not give in to 50/50. Someone already thought he needed supervised visitations. That speaks volumes to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for the information.

I do still fear my ex- mostly for our daughter. But being honest (yay anonymity) - I am still afraid for myself as well. I still look around every time I go to my car. I screen my calls. I installed a video doorbell at my parent's place. It's weird because if I'm in a public setting or people are there- I will go toe-to-toe with my ex now. I set boundaries in co-parent counselling. But I still am nervous- and feel off in his presence. It's frustrating because I suspect he knows it.

I will not give in or agree to 50/50- not now. However, I will agree to use it as an end goal.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:30 PM
StillPaying StillPaying is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 171
StillPaying is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
I will not give in or agree to 50/50- not now. However, I will agree to use it as an end goal.
This is why your ex needs court, and why ex's in general don't control each other's homes. You're all over the place. You are ok with 50/50, but only when he has satisfied your feelings. However, he has already satisfied police, court, counselor, supervised center etc; just not quite enough for you yet. He may not cook properly, he may not put cream on, he may not..... What you feel won't matter. IMO, the courts will be satisfied long before you.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CAS report & custody blinkandimgone Parenting Issues 11 01-19-2012 06:03 PM
Challenging the OCL report WorkingDAD Divorce & Family Law 21 03-16-2011 10:04 AM
Childrens lawyer report fireweb13 Divorce & Family Law 0 02-24-2011 11:57 AM
Question about a "Custody and Access" Report katay Divorce & Family Law 5 03-22-2009 03:32 PM
Custody Disputed Decent Dad Political Issues 2 06-26-2006 09:05 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 PM.