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Parenting Plan- How specific should you be?

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  • #31
    RE: So, what is the new deadline when they miss the first deadline? Can they choose their two weeks on July 3rd, starting the following day? What happens if both parents miss the deadline? Who gets priority?

    There was no new deadline. If it was missed, it was missed.

    My circumstances may not be like yours; the kids' mother never used the summer vacation provision, even when she had first choice. I did use it and then she would take the 2 weeks following, that was the extent of it.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
      What I anticipated there was that one parent might be more involved in the kids schooling and know the academic requirements more than the other- e.g. exam schedules.
      I generally assume a certain level of maliciousness from the other parent. Discretion is the root of all evil.

      Comment


      • #33
        RE: For the rest of the summer- after the consecutive weeks were chosen- it's just one week with one parent, then switch?

        - Yes that is correct; the regular parenting schedule resumed

        I noticed you said you did parallel parenting. Can I ask how did you decide which parent took which responsibility?

        - It was not a decision, as in there was no negotiation or nothing written into our agreement. I took responsibility (by default) for our kids' education because there were concerns (learning disability) and nothing was being done. For their health and dental, we both covered these as needed. If an appointment fell on my time, I took them and same with their mother.

        Comment


        • #34
          not-so-good

          Originally posted by Janus View Post
          Wow.

          That's really good. Almost separate thread with a sticky good.
          No, I can actually poke many holes in iona's travel clause, not the least of which is the loophole my ex has found to effectively deny the kids vacations that I wrote about in another thread. It's a start though. I may be able to build on this.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by CoolGuy41 View Post
            No, I can actually poke many holes in iona's travel clause, not the least of which is the loophole my ex has found to effectively deny the kids vacations that I wrote about in another thread. It's a start though. I may be able to build on this.
            I see what you're saying about the itinerary. I would amend it to read as follows:

            ....

            No later than four months before the scheduling of the trip, the parent planning the trip (the "trip parent") shall give notice to other parent (the "non-trip parent") of the location and itinerary of the trip. The itinerary need not include flight or hotel confirmations until such time as consent is obtained as outlined below (emphasis added). The trip parent shall make arrangements with the child(ren)'s school to cover any work that may be missed as a result of the trip.

            ....

            Comment


            • #36
              Good catch on the itinerary clause. You're right, that's another discretion clause. I should have noticed that because my ex tried to put one in and I explicitly took it out. That has saved me countless headaches. In fact, all I have to provide is maximum dates, country and emergency contact.


              Maximum dates: I give a range of dates, and I can travel within those dates.


              eg. I say Dec 11 to Dec 21, and I'm allowed to travel from Dec 12 to Dec 17 if I feel like it. Lets me get consent in advance and still be able to do last minute deals.

              Comment


              • #37
                Bulletproof (?) draft order for travel

                I've removed the "unreasonably interfere with the child(ren)'s schooling" provision because I agree with Janus.

                I've removed the vaccinations provision because looking out for the children's health needs goes without saying and an explicit clause would just open up a means to thwart the trip.

                I've removed the CS provision because parents have no legal say on CS.

                I've made some tweaks to give the trip parent more rights (e.g. 3 weeks notice instead of 4 months). This is subjective but I almost never plan trips that far ahead.

                Specific email addresses could be stipulated as discussed elsewhere on these forums. For me I think it's not necessary.

                General possession of passports and passport application protocol is a bit of a separate issue that I didn't really address but it would need to be addressed to make this work.

                Please advise if you can poke any holes or foresee any issues with my version.


                (1) No more than once in any calendar year, either party may seek a vacation arrangement with the child(ren) for trips.

                (2) Definitions
                Before the scheduling of the trip, the parent planning the trip (the "trip parent") shall give notice by email to other parent (the "non-trip parent") of an intention to take the trip “Trip Intention”. The Trip Intention must specify a 30-day (or less) date range within which the planned trip is expected to take place the “Estimated Date Range”.

                (3) Restrictions on the Estimated Date Range
                (a) The Estimated Date Range must:
                i) start no sooner than 3 weeks from the date the Trip Intention email is sent

                (b) The Estimated Date Range must not:
                (i) encroach on the summer vacation parenting time of the non-trip parent pursuant to terms X through Y of the [order from trial].
                (ii) occur within 2 weeks of the block of summer vacation parenting time reserved by the trip parent pursuant to terms X through Y of the [order from trial].
                (iii) encroach on an Estimated Date Range previously specified by the other parent, if the other parent is exercising his/her rights as a trip parent and he/she has already sent out a Trip Intention email.

                (c) The Estimated Date Range may:
                (i) encroach on the regular parenting time of the non-trip parent
                (ii) encroach on the special occasion parenting time of the non-trip parent
                (iii) include days when the Children would normally attend school

                (4) Trip Destination
                The Trip Intention email does not need to specify a trip destination. However, the trip destination must:
                (a) be outside of [home province],
                (b) be specified in the booking info under paragraph (6), and
                (c) not be a location listed on the Government of Canada's 'Travel Advice and Advisories' website as an 'AVOID ALL TRAVEL' location.

                (5) Pre-booking Obligations of the Non-Trip Parent
                (a) Within 72 hours of the Trip Intention email (conformant to the above rules) having been sent, the non-trip parent must provide the trip parent with general travel consent letter valid for the date range stated in the Travel Intention email. This letter shall have the following format:
                I, [non-trip parent’s name], permit [Children’s names] to travel outside Canada with [trip parent’s name] between the dates [start of 30-day range] and [end of 30-day range].

                (b) If the non-trip parent is in possession of the Children’s passports at the time the Trip Intention has been sent, the non-trip parent must also provide those passports to the trip parent. The non-trip parent must provide the passports within 72 hours of the trip parent sending the Trip Intention email.

                (6) Post-booking obligations of the trip parent
                Within one week of booking the trip, the trip parent must provide the non-trip parent a travel itinerary that includes the exact departure & return dates and times and the travel destinations.

                (7) Trip Parenting Time
                (a) The trip parent is entitled to parenting time with the Children under this order, the “Trip Parenting Time”. The Trip Parenting Time:
                (i) starts 24 prior to the trip departure date/time in stated the itinerary. If the trip is by air, this would be the flight departure time,
                (ii) ends 24 hours after trip return. If the trip is by air, this would be the actual flight arrival time.
                (iii) must occur within the date range stated in the Travel Intention, and
                (iv) must not exceed 18 days in total.

                (b) 24 hours after the trip return time:
                (i) parenting time as per other court orders resumes as if the trip had never occurred,
                (ii) the trip parent must return any passports previously provided by the non-trip parent under (5)(b), unless the trip parent is entitled to possess the passports by another order of the court.

                (c) The non-trip parent is not entitled to compensatory parenting time in exchange for the trip parent having taken Trip Parenting Time.

                (8) Contingencies
                (a) In the event that the trip does not happen due the non-trip parent’s failure to fulfill anything the non-trip parent is required to do under this order (for example, not making the Children available to the trip parent for the parenting time granted by the paragraph above), the non-trip parent shall be liable for any costs the trip parent has incurred for the trip for him/herself plus the Children. (I) Specifically, with regard to the trip parent’s costs:
                (i) The trip parent shall provide the non-trip parent copies of receipts for the trip’s costs,
                (ii) The non-trip parent shall pay the trip parent the amount of these costs forthwith.

                (II) In addition, the trip parent shall not be deemed to have exercised his/her rights under this order in the event that his/her trip falls through as a result of the other parent’s failure to fulfill their obligations under this order.

                (b) In the event that the trip does not happen within the Estimated Date Range for reasons that are not the fault of the non-trip parent:
                (i) The non-trip parent shall return the travel consent letter provided under (5)(a) of this order to the trip parent.
                (ii) The non-trip parent shall return any passports have been provided under (5)(b) of this order to the trip parent.
                (iii) The non-trip parent shall not be entitled to Trip Parenting Time under (7) of this order.
                (iv) The trip parent shall be deemed to have exercised his/her rights under this order for this calendar year. As per (1), these rights may only be exercised once per calendar year.
                Last edited by CoolGuy41; 03-19-2019, 05:41 PM. Reason: found 2 holes right after clicking post

                Comment


                • #38
                  I noticed that one condition is that the trip must take place outside of the home province. Presumably, this is to avoid the situation where one parent just grabs all of July for giggles by calling it a vacation. However, one could easily want to have a vacation in say, northern Ontario, (or a cottage) and your trip provision does not allow for that.

                  Not saying that is necessarily a problem, just pointing it out.

                  Personally, I think a 30 day absence from school would be debilitating. A 30 day range is fine, but maybe a maximum of 14 days within the 30 day range, or a maximum number of school days missed within that range?

                  I also think that a 3 week notice for a one month absence from my kids would be unacceptable. Beyond the emotional whiplash, there are some practical considerations. For example, I book camping sites in May. Under your system, mom could decide at the beginning of July to grab the kids for all of August. Do I have any recourse for those non-refundable booking fees? Alternatively, am I forced to book at the last second when only the crappy sites are left?

                  Offhand, I think if your agreement has any problems it is going to be that the trip parent has too much power. You've made it really tough for the non-trip parent to pull any shenanigans.

                  The only possible one is that sometimes a notarized letter is required, and you have not made any provisions for that.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Janus View Post
                    Offhand, I think if your agreement has any problems it is going to be that the trip parent has too much power. You've made it really tough for the non-trip parent to pull any shenanigans.
                    .
                    Yep- not shenanigans per se- but it's clearly written from the perspective of the parent who wants to take the trip and doesn't awnt to give any say to the non-trip parent...even if the objection is valid (e.g. a 30 day block out period is a lot- and I have hte same question as whether there's a potential for 30 days total. because that seems unreasonable).

                    I'm not a family lawyer- but I don't think this clause would stand up in court- there's no balance.

                    Also- if you're ex isn't totally stupid- why would they ever agree to this?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      This has become pages and pages for 1 issue. Is that going to work? It seems like overkill. It seems like one could not even go out of town for a weekend without notifying the other parent! We don’t have anything like this in our agreement, just a standard summer vacation clause of each parent gets 2 consecutive weeks. It doesn’t specify travel or not during those 2 weeks. At first there was something about not unreasonably withholding passports, and my ex tried to say we had to have permission from the other parent to leave the province but in the end it’s not there and I am fine with that. Why should anyone have to ask their ex to travel to their neighboring province for the weekend? Silly. My ex one time, prior to agreement being signed, refused to sign a consent travel letter for out of country travel for a family destination event. My understanding was that barring a dangerous country, a super important school issue (like a high school final) or evidence of planned parent subduction, it was highly likely the court would require the parent to make it happen. My lawyer told me worse case scenario if ex still refused she just needed enough lead time to ask for an emergent court date on the issue(I can’t remember the proper term) and as it was a all inclusive Mexico resort I would most likely be given permission to travel without consent and ex would have to pay costs. Apparently in my province the judges don’t have a lot of tolerance for wasting the courts time with sillly refusals of travel. In the end, about 2 months prior travel we were at court for a temp Morrison on a different issue, therefore it was brought up either that ex refused to sign travel form and judge firmly said to his lawyer what is the issue with this, are we going to have a problem here??? To which his lawyer said no no no, he will sign it. I felt bad for his lawyer in away as it was clear his lawyer had no idea he was refusing to sign. Had to kind of back peddle. In the end the separation agreement has only the 14 day summer holiday part and I am quite confident if ex refused reasonable requests I would just go to court to have it taken care of.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I think too that parents can get bogged down in details that later they don’t care about. Like how my ex forcawhile insisted must have a signed permission to visit a province. When here travel to another province is very routine and they are close together and easily have friends and relatives in another province. Well in the end that was removed. And my ex, who had insisted, will go to another province for the weekend and not tell me. So why the insistence to start with. At first I was all about the right of first refusal, until people here clued me in to problems. Then I dropped it and glad I did. You can get too bogged down in detail and make it worse

                        Comment

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