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  • 50/50 Access with Full CS???

    My ex and I have tried to settle through counsel before our court costs get too high. I have wanted 50/50 access to the 2 kids all along. Now, her lawyer and her are offering this access only if we are willing to pay full child support. On top of that I have to pay 2/3's daycare costs....these 2 expenses will take 40% of my net pay.

    On top of that, ,like everyone else, I have to provide for the kids when I have them, pay for housing, groceries, insurance, etc etc. I just don't see how it's possible for me to survive like a normal person after all these costs. I know many many people go through this.

    At our case conference the master/judge said if it was up to him he would award a 50/50 access arrangment with joint custody....but, it was only a case conference held without prejudice.

    If I call their bluff and say I want to keep fighting for a 50/50 with the offset amount for child support I'm worried that something may change and I lose the 50% access.

    I really don't know what to do at this point. We still don't have a settlement conference scheduled but I would rather settle this before we get to that point.

  • #2
    You're right, you shouldn't have to pay full CS.

    BUT I think you should look at other options. Maybe you can propose that you split section 7 50-50, or you pay less CS (60&#37 or something. Make a reasonable counter offer and see what happens. If you do decide to fight for the offset method and end up in court, your offers could help yuo get costs if you are successful.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by billiechic View Post
      You're right, you shouldn't have to pay full CS.

      BUT I think you should look at other options. Maybe you can propose that you split section 7 50-50, or you pay less CS (60%) or something. Make a reasonable counter offer and see what happens. If you do decide to fight for the offset method and end up in court, your offers could help yuo get costs if you are successful.
      At this point my lawyer is drafting up some different proposals and I'm sure they will all get rejected. I don't understand her lawyers thinking ... she wants me to pay full CS on a 50/50 arrangement plus they want spousal support on top of that. I don't think any judge would award something so generous to on party. If she is getting full CS then there is no way she needs SS on top of that.

      I hate the fact that I have to buy back my kids. I guess it's because I'm so evil for not taking her back after her affair...haha

      Comment


      • #4
        Do you currently have 50-50 interim?

        Who currently gets the CCTB/UCCB?

        Does the ex work?

        How much (ballpark) does she make?
        How much do you make?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by NBDad View Post
          Do you currently have 50-50 interim?

          Who currently gets the CCTB/UCCB?

          Does the ex work?

          How much (ballpark) does she make?
          How much do you make?
          In writing we have an agreement outling every 2nd weekend on a without prejudice basis until the separation is finalized. They have agreed to a 50/50 in writing but only if I pay up.

          She currently gets the CCTB/UCCB and she works full time.
          She makes around 45K and I make around 77K.

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          • #6
            I question whether she even should be getting SS. Greedy...

            Comment


            • #7
              She wouldn't qualify for spousal if you go by a quick glance. Running the numbers through the software might give a different answer, but I doubt it.

              MAYBE you could get away with doing offset CS, 50-50 access and offering up some small token amount of spousal support with a clear cut TERMINATION DATE. (You can claim spousal support payments on your income taxes - so you'd get a bit of a tax break)

              That might be enough to entice her to accept the counter offer. Once you get 50-50 in a signed court order, then file for CCTB, at anything more than 40% you'd qualify for it 6 months a year.

              For 2 kids in Ontario, with a line 150 income of 77K, you'd get around $104/month. Mind you this also means your ex wouldn't receive anything for 6 months....AND there wouldn't be a damn thing she could do about it.

              Save that for end game, it's a prick move, but between the extra $600/year from that + the tax break on spousal payments + your ex missing out on $1362/year ($227 * 6 months) you should pretty much break even if you do it right.

              Comment


              • #8
                Don't get bullied.Listen to NBDAD.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Almost forgot...make sure you decide who claims the kids on the income taxes. Whether you alternate years or do 1 each. It's another tax break you're entitled to.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                    Almost forgot...make sure you decide who claims the kids on the income taxes. Whether you alternate years or do 1 each. It's another tax break you're entitled to.
                    Aww crap, forgot to tell my lawyer ex claimed them in 2009. Just sent list for offer.

                    NBDAD: good explanation. I would try it!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I posted a question earlier about how to contest an order for support where the two parents have 50/50 custody but father was ordered to pay 100% support. Anyways the father appealed the order and had his support cut in half because he shares custody.

                      Perhaps to speed things up, you could get an order for the 50/50 you want, and then go to court later and ask for a variance based on the 50/50. However there may be some pitfalls, such as they may claim that you agreed to pay 100% support. But you may turn this against them by saying that they forced you to agree, or you would not be able to get the access you are entitled too.

                      Not sure if it would work, but may be a strategy to try.

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                      • #12
                        Agree with rwm. Your goal has to be 50/50 regardless of cost, if you go to court just over the $$ then the judge thinks you only care about that and not the time with the kids. She is making an offer for 50/50 so it looks like you only care about the $$.

                        You can ALWAYS make a motion to vary, and should probably do this next year when you exchange tax returns. Your incomes will probably change at least incrementally and you can make your argument then, and it will cost a fraction of what a trial would cost.

                        You can word the separation agreement without any statements like "XXX will pay 100% of the table amount even though the Guidelines section 7 requires the set-off.." Just do not include any such language. Argree to an amount, without any other wording, and then just get a motion to vary according to the Guidelines later.

                        It means you suck it up for 1 year and pay double. Meanwhile you get status quo and an agreement for custody that gives you joint legal custody with equal shared access. As long as the children are doing well and happy with the arrangement, it is virtually impossible for her to attack it later; meanwhile it is normal for you to seek a motion to vary the amount.

                        As rwm implies, you can claim duress for the original agreement. However be careful that they aren't using a lot of clauses and language to lock things in without any possibility of varying the CS. Try to use standard clauses that require the the CS to be recalculated each year after the tax assessments are received, according to the Child Support Guidelines. Remember that section 7 of the Guidelines requires the set-off method but you won't mention this.

                        Don't let me make you think this is iron clad, nothing is, but it is a decent chance, she can't pull this off forever. Meanwhile the important thing is to have the 50/50 locked in.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                          She wouldn't qualify for spousal if you go by a quick glance. Running the numbers through the software might give a different answer, but I doubt it.

                          MAYBE you could get away with doing offset CS, 50-50 access and offering up some small token amount of spousal support with a clear cut TERMINATION DATE. (You can claim spousal support payments on your income taxes - so you'd get a bit of a tax break)

                          That might be enough to entice her to accept the counter offer. Once you get 50-50 in a signed court order, then file for CCTB, at anything more than 40% you'd qualify for it 6 months a year.

                          For 2 kids in Ontario, with a line 150 income of 77K, you'd get around $104/month. Mind you this also means your ex wouldn't receive anything for 6 months....AND there wouldn't be a damn thing she could do about it.

                          Save that for end game, it's a prick move, but between the extra $600/year from that + the tax break on spousal payments + your ex missing out on $1362/year ($227 * 6 months) you should pretty much break even if you do it right.
                          Well played NBDad! How do you make the claim for 6 months of CCTB? Is that something written into the agreement or do I just claim this when I file my taxes?

                          Thanks!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You fill out form RC66 and submit it separately, attaching your court order to it as proof. They will receive and process it within 6-8 weeks. MAY be a little longer, since you are moved from SOLE to SHARED eligibility, so they are legally obligated to try and contact your ex.

                            (The telephone reps SHOULD see it on your account within 1 week of receipt, I ALWAYS send the application via registered mail so I KNOW they've received it). They may not see details, just the fact there is a pending document on file.

                            Basically they should then send YOU and YOUR EX a form to fill out. You fill it out truthfully and return in. (ie. the kids live with ME some of the time) and then write the explanation as to how much time they are with you. I always attached a letter as well, outlining the amount of time they kids are with me, and then showing that it was over 40% (list the SPECIFIC percentage) and ending with this line:

                            "As per the above schedule, I believe this would move our situation into shared eligibility, which I am requesting be done".

                            RC66 - Canada Child Benefits Application

                            The best part is that once you file it, she CANNOT have a family court do anything about it. It lies outside their jurisdiction and has an appeals process already in place. She can't hit you with a small claims suit, and she can't have family court do anything about it.

                            It goes without saying that you DO NOT want to mention that plan to your ex at all. Let her get hit with it blindside when CRA notifies her. She can TRY to lie all she wants, as long as you have a signed court order, it's GOING to get changed to Shared Eligibility.
                            Last edited by NBDad; 11-12-2010, 02:01 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Her act of offering 50/50 custody in writing is acknowleging that you'd be a suitable father so she no longer has grounds to ask for full custody herself. I'd say you've already won that battle.

                              She wants full table amounts when the law says she'd be entitled to the offset amount so just go with the presumption that you have 50/50 and let her demand more child support than she's entitled to. It sure looks like she's treating the kids as a source of income and I'm sure a judge would see that too.

                              I think a rule of thumb for spousal support is to bring the lower income earner up to 45% of the income of the higher income earner. With shared custody you may be close to that threshold already with the offset child support. In my case, the numbers are similar to yours and simple child support pretty much equalized our incomes. How could she ask for anything more?

                              According to CRA if you have shared custody you MUST split the cctb and ucc. Apply for them once you have the agreement in writing.

                              As stated earlier, if you have more than one child you can both claim them as an eligible dependant. That's worth a few thousand at tax time. You must agree who claims which child though, if you both claim for the same child it will be denied for both of you. She has nothing to lose by agreeing which child to claim and lots to lose if she's uncooperative and you happen to both claim the same child.

                              Comment

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