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  • #31
    Well said Tayken, wish I could add to your reputation but I can't anymore. LOL I've given you too many the website won't let me

    Can you clear your PM so I can PM you?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
      When I, or my transportation with which I'm sitting in, are assaulted, in what is supposed to be a simple act of picking up our child, the police will be called. I don't deserve to be assaulted. The ex's actions, alone, are what get her in trouble.
      Dad2bandm,

      What you should be more concerned with is that the conduct of the person ("parent") in question may constitute "violence or abuse" in accordance with Rule 24.(2) of the Children's Law Reform Act of Ontario. If a minor child observes this kind of conduct and behaviour appropriate solutions are available to you through the OCJ or SCJ to resolve this issue.

      My recommendation would be to have neutral third parties exchange the child/ren in question and that parents should not be present at exchanges. My recommendation is that you should seek an order for joint custody in the model of parallel parenting. In addition I recommend that you seek an order that outlines a detailed access plan and identifies clearly where access exchanges are to occur.

      A daycare may be of value for exchanging the children in question and is a potential neutral third party that may be able to assist in facilitating this.

      Good Luck!
      Tayken

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tayken View Post

        What you should be more concerned with is that the conduct of the person ("parent") in question may constitute "violence or abuse" in accordance with Rule 24.(2) of the Children's Law Reform Act of Ontario. If a minor child observes this kind of conduct and behaviour appropriate solutions are available to you through the OCJ or SCJ to resolve this issue...

        ...A daycare may be of value for exchanging the children in question and is a potential neutral third party that may be able to assist in facilitating this.
        I didn't want to hijack the thread... but I'm working on some of this.

        I'll look up that rule. Thanks Tayken.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
          I didn't want to hijack the thread... but I'm working on some of this.

          I'll look up that rule. Thanks Tayken.
          I quoted it in post #29 to this thread already for you:

          http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...tml#post136809

          If you need help finding a guide to creating a parallel parenting agreement let me know.

          Good Luck!
          Tayken

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
            I've requested the "freedom of information" records, on the occurances, involved in my situations, as I'm curious to see what, if anything was recorded, during those times. I highly doubt they will have any info, that corresponds with what happened.
            I wouldn't say they won't have the relevant info, I can tell you that most likely you won't be able to read most of it as it is going to be blacked out (unless the courts order it to be fully transparent I understand).

            Originally posted by Tayken View Post
            Exploring it from another angle...

            What benefit is it to the children, the primary concern (Rule 24) of a family law proceeding for the parent in question to be criminally charged for an emotional outburst?
            There is absolutely no benefit to the children, at all. However for the one spouse it may appear to be beneficial to have the other charged. For what reason? Credibility I would think. Family court operates on the balance of probability, not beyond reasonable doubt. I had a highly respected (not by me lol) judge tell me that joint custody was not possible based on lack of communication and police involvement. I explained to her that she hadn't seen the evidence. Mind you this was at a 'settlement' conference, not at trial. Still, that seems to be the thinking still among prominent judges so the truism holds true.

            Originally posted by Tayken View Post
            It may have been a single incident. It may even be multiple. But, it takes more than someone slamming their hand on a car to get a charge against them. Also, it takes way more than that to get a conviction.
            Hmm, I don't think it takes much actually, and even if you plea bargain you're still looking at a blemished record. It takes very little to constitute assault, just laying your finger on the other person is assault.


            Originally posted by Tayken View Post
            Does the incident fit what is the court's view of "violence" and "abuse" against you? Remember, the court's view is rather different than that of the "domestic violence" advocates. Justice Brownstone provides some judicial insight in his book "Tug of War" if you haven't read it yet.

            Good Luck!
            Tayken
            Is it really that different? I hope you're right, just in my experience without going to trial though, and most cases don't go to trial so most people are dealing with perceptions of judges at conferences and motions.

            Originally posted by Tayken View Post
            My recommendation would be to have neutral third parties exchange the child/ren in question and that parents should not be present at exchanges.
            A daycare may be of value for exchanging the children in question and is a potential neutral third party that may be able to assist in facilitating this.

            Good Luck!
            Tayken
            At the minimum dad2bandm, have someone present with you as a witness. It is really a pain in the ass for others, it's really tough for them to have to be in the middle of this but you really need to not be alone, day or night, at these exchanges.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by baldclub View Post
              I wouldn't say they won't have the relevant info, I can tell you that most likely you won't be able to read most of it as it is going to be blacked out (unless the courts order it to be fully transparent I understand).
              I heard that lawyers can get them without blackouts. Not sure how they do this.

              Originally posted by baldclub View Post
              There is absolutely no benefit to the children, at all. However for the one spouse it may appear to be beneficial to have the other charged. For what reason?
              Not that I don't agree with your position (below) but, I am adding to that "vindication" and the feeling of "justice".

              Originally posted by baldclub View Post
              Credibility I would think. Family court operates on the balance of probability, not beyond reasonable doubt.
              But, you run a lot of risk on the balance of probabilities though. A criminal charge is not an instant "credibility" impact. It is all a matter of "perception" as Justice Pazaratz put it to one poster to this site...

              Originally posted by baldclub View Post
              Hmm, I don't think it takes much actually, and even if you plea bargain you're still looking at a blemished record. It takes very little to constitute assault, just laying your finger on the other person is assault.
              Well, no one should plea out of a charge. (See Shaw v. Shaw). The counter argument to this is Shaw v. Shaw.

              Originally posted by baldclub View Post
              Is it really that different? I hope you're right, just in my experience without going to trial though, and most cases don't go to trial so most people are dealing with perceptions of judges at conferences and motions.
              Conferences are not an issue. Motions yes, the perception problem is an issue.

              Originally posted by baldclub View Post
              At the minimum dad2bandm, have someone present with you as a witness. It is really a pain in the ass for others, it's really tough for them to have to be in the middle of this but you really need to not be alone, day or night, at these exchanges.
              Very sound advice given. I second baldclub's recommendation.

              Good Luck!
              Tayken

              Comment


              • #37
                Just want to add something here:

                A week before our trial was going to happen, I received a nasty email from my ex who apparently was trying to reopen up an allegation from four years before. Again the wheels started turning in my head and I realized I should actually go to the police with this email.

                I was a bit concerned as my view of police officers and the system had suffered a vital lack of trust, even with a brother and father both police, and I was worried about just who I would be speaking to at the station.

                I showed the email to a different police officer, I spoke of my concerns regarding the use of allegations in the past and spoke about some evidence I had in the form of 39 calls from her to me till 4 o'clock in the morning, various emails and text messages and police reports. I reiterated my concern in view of the approaching trial in a week's time.

                When I came back home later in the evening after being out with the kids, I found a DV flyer from the police and the same officer did a telephone survey with me re background info. I didn't hold back too much, I did more openly report past events which in the past I would have never brought up because not wanting to involve police. Now, I understand the importance of reporting incidents. I did end the call by saying I wanted the family law process to continue and not use the other noise to distract us from achieving a fair trial.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                  Conferences are not an issue. Motions yes, the perception problem is an issue.
                  Actually, conferences are an issue as judges will be involved and although everything is said without prejudice, my ex reported in her following briefs what she though had happened at conferences and what she thought the judge had said. She basically was hijacking what was said but...

                  She also used the position a judge had indicated as how they would rule...although again that judge had not seen the evidence. I'm just saying judges can influence and be influenced more so than what I ever expected just by the old saying: "The squeaky wheel gets the oil".

                  Thanks for your feedback Tayken though!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by baldclub View Post
                    Actually, conferences are an issue as judges will be involved and although everything is said without prejudice, my ex reported in her following briefs what she though had happened at conferences and what she thought the judge had said. She basically was hijacking what was said but...
                    I respectfully disagree as a justice at a conference can't make a substantial order in the matter. Furthermore, in accordance with the Rules the justice who hears the conference can't hear the trial or the motion.

                    Too many people worry about conferences and briefs and what was said. It is the fast path to a long motion when you do this.

                    Originally posted by baldclub View Post
                    She also used the position a judge had indicated as how they would rule...although again that judge had not seen the evidence. I'm just saying judges can influence and be influenced more so than what I ever expected just by the old saying: "The squeaky wheel gets the oil".
                    But, was any of that "information" recanted in an affidavit? If it was then, it is a violation of the Rules and would have had to be struck and it wouldn't be allowed to form any part of the record.

                    So, again, conferences don't hold much weight only until such time a costs order comes into focus. Hopefully as the party people reading this site will realize that filling a brief full of allegations that can't be proven will be used against them when ordering costs.

                    Briefs, are just that... "Brief". If someone goes over 5 pages in their brief then well, they are not going to get much done at a conference. (This is the "brief" itself... Not a settlement offer attached to it.)

                    Good and reasonable offers to settle can deflect litigation most of the time.

                    Good Luck!
                    Tayken

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I know this thread is old but while I was reading it, I had some questions. First, is emotional abuse considered in court "(considering I am a man) ? Second, taken mentioned that the judge that hears a motion won't be the judge that will be assigned to the trial? Is this correct? Third, what is a case management conference? Does a judge make a decision during this conference?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        1. To define abuse, I would read Tayken's thread on abuse.
                        2. correct
                        3. Nothing is suppose to happen at a case conference unless it's on consent. That said I have heard of judges turning a case conference into a motion without notice and making an order. But I have only heard of this happening at Ontario Justice level, not at superior court.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by nolimit View Post
                          First, is emotional abuse considered in court "(considering I am a man) ?
                          "Emotional Abuse" better identified as "psychological abuse" is rarely considered as it is subjective. Arguments can be made that the "victim" suffers from an anxiety disorder or other mental health disorder in which anything said to them can cause them anxiety which they psychologically project as "abuse".

                          http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...ase-law-16809/

                          If you attempt to claim "emotional abuse" evidence in order to invoke Rule 24.(4) (Violence and Abuse) I seriously caution you. Be it man, woman, gay, lesbian or transgendered as soon as you alledge "abuse" your medical records will be requested by the other party. All of them.

                          It may seem "logical" to claim "emotional abuse" but, one has to really understand the complexities of this concept of "abuse". A very senior justice recently addressed the complexity with the term "abuse" (including "emotional abuse"):

                          http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...ase-law-16809/

                          [12] The difficulty with the term “abuse”, as it is used in affidavits filed in family law cases, is that it is used subjectively. It is an emotionally coloured term. It is not limited to describing physical violence but may be also be used to describe a range of conflicts including arguments, differences of opinion or values, or hurt feelings. For example, one partner may consider himself or herself as a good money manager while the other partner may perceive close budgeting as coercive control. One partner may consider an end-of-day inquiry about how the other spouse’s day went as an indication of love or interest while a disaffected spouse may deem the inquiry intrusive and controlling.
                          Originally posted by nolimit View Post
                          Second, Tayken mentioned that the judge that hears a motion won't be the judge that will be assigned to the trial? Is this correct?
                          Yes. Please read the Family Law Rules or retain counsel. If you do not understand this basic element of the law you really should have a lawyer.

                          Originally posted by nolimit View Post
                          Third, what is a case management conference? Does a judge make a decision during this conference?
                          Again, it depends. A justice can't make a substantive order. For example, change custody or access unless both parties CONSENT (agree). Judges can order all sorts of documentation disclosure.

                          For example, if you claimed "emotional abuse" on your Form 35.1 then, I would recommend to the other party opposing your claim to request an order at the Conference for the the full disclosure of your medical records, the names of every treating clinician you have had and their medical records... The defence to a claim of 'emotional abuse' is often to demonstrate that you suffer a long-term anxiety disorder. (Fear of being judged, fear of social situations, etc...)

                          Claiming "abuse" of any kind is VERY SERIOUS in Family Law and should not be done to gain an advantage. In most cases... It does not create an advantage for anyone...

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken

                          Comment

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