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  • Co-Parenting with a Control Freak

    I'm seeking sole custody, he is seeking joint. My reason being that he was abusive and beyond controlling, and there has always been a power imbalance. I'm also the one who made all the medical and educational decisions for the kids, so I don't feel that should change. He's also controlling and emotionally abusive with my kids. The OCL is involved, trying to determine custody/access.

    Being the pessimist that I am, I'm dealing with worse case scenario. If they decide on joint custody, I have no idea how I'm going to handle this. My daughter was in therapy before we physically split up. I had to temporarily stop therapy, because my ex started cleaning out the bank account each pay, and I couldn't afford to continue with her therapy. Once I moved out, I made her therapy one of my top priorities, and started it back up again. When I pointed out to him, that I'm paying for everything, he got all wound up and said I needed his permission to put her in therapy. I told him it was the same therapist she was going to before, and it only stopped, because he was spending all our money. He demanded for the therapist's name and number (yes, it was the same therapist she went to while we were married). I provided both and told her therapist what happened. She said she'd need his consent and began calling HIM, leaving messages. He did not return her calls. My lawyer wrote a letter, telling him to kindly give his consent and stop ignoring her calls. He claimed she never called (she left three messages) and said he would call her. Nope. Finally, after a month of this nonsense, she finally got hold of him, and he gave consent.

    Now, being summer, he got two non-consecutive weeks with the kids. I knew he planned on going out of town with them (they told me), so I emailed, asking that he please provide me with the name of the hotel, phone number and how long they would be out of town. He ignored four emails with this request. He finally texted me and said they were already out of town and he had his cell. I reminded him that he was to tell me before they left, and asked what hotel they were at and for the number. He gave me the name and told me to find the number on the internet. Being that this was a hotel chain, there were two in that city, so I had to text back and ask which one. He also didn't let me know (depspite another four emails), when he was returning my children. He didn't reply until the morning that he was supposed to return them, only to say it would be the following morning.

    I told my lawyer what happened, and he said that the next week he took the kids, I shouldn't release them into his care, until he provides me with this very basic information.

    So, in order to avoid a scene, I emailed him on Monday, saying that I know he is planning on taking the kids camping, and to kindly let me know which Provincial Park they were going to, from what date until what date (I call the kids to say goodnight at their request), and what time he would be picking them up from my home and when he would be returning them. I asked that he please let me know by Thursday (he gets them on Monday, but wanted the information before the weekend, in case I needed to call my lawyer). I also told him that I would be out of town for two days with them at the end of the month, told him which hotel we would be at, which dates and provided the hotel's number (despite the fact that he never calls them).

    Well, it's now Friday and no reply.

    How am I supposed to co-parent with this man? He only replies to emails that he wants to reply to. Or, alternatively, he only answers parts of various emails and ignores other parts. If I don't reply to one of his emails within hours, he texts me with the content of the email, so I am forced to reply right then and there. I feel overwhelmed that for the next ten years or so, I am going to be at this man's mercy. I left the marriage to get away from his need to control everyone, and I still feel like he's calling all the shots. I'm so frustrated and I want peace for the sake of my kids.

  • #2
    How do you do it? You just do the best you can when it's your time with them and let him do the best he can with them when it's his. Love the snot out of them when they're with you and when they're with him. Recognize that you're both still parents and that divorced or not you both still have a responsibility to do everything you possibly can to ensure their success as adults. How? You put them first.

    Please read the next sentence carefully: From what you wrote above, a reader could be forgiven for coming to the conclusion that you are the one with control issues. I, personally, find it telling that you detail how his control issues affected you, why you left the marriage, that you are frustrated because he's still "calling the shots" and then the last 5 words are "for the sake of my kids."

    Facts: You guys split up, you are each in charge of your own lives, and it's time to move on. You're both parents, have a "right" to parent, and your children have a right to be raised by both of you. You BOTH need to grow up and do right by your kids. It's not his fault, it's not your fault - it's BOTH of yours.

    Consider this: MAYBE he is acting this way because he's sick of being constantly harrangued, harrassed, henpecked and harried. MAYBE you're not being reasonable in your requests, and if you were he'd be in return. MAYBE you're on the phone 24/7 with him and/or the kids during his time with the children. MAYBE the only way he can truly get away from you is to disappear in a hotel somewhere. Just MAYBE. There are 3 sides to every divorce story: His, hers and the truth - which is almost always somewhere smack in the middle. Just sayin' ...

    From where I sit, it appears that you are both being assholes and that you both need to realize that it is no longer about yourselves but about your kids. BOTH of you.

    IF there is an agreement in place and it is not being followed, then enforce it. If the agreement says that an address or contact info has to be provided for out of town trips, then provide it and ensure that it is provided to you in return. It's that easy.

    You want peace? It's easy: Let go and move on. Joint parenting is the new reality: make it work "for the sake of [your] kids."

    Sorry if that's not the answer you wanted...

    Cheers!

    Gary

    Comment


    • #3
      here is another example Gary of your being raked over the coals!!!!!!!! I have sole custody of my child and the ONLY reason why I went for sole was that HE wouldnt give me a letter to take our child shopping in the states. He said that if he cant go then our child cant. I called bullshit and went to court and won against him & his lawyer.
      I have had sole custody order since sept 2004 and really the ex hasnt followed anything in it this is why we are returning to court over BS HE has started.


      Gary maybe SHE is acting this way cause she is tired of HIS childish, irresponsible and demeaning ways.......that is how quick YOU are Gary to judge others. Really GARY Im not trying to be mean but I hope your children are grown and gone cause your general attitude is very toxic and would be for the well being of small children.

      Comment


      • #4
        So you feel that a woman who has been abused, whose children have been and continue to be abused, is the one with control issues? Believe it or not, sometimes the father IS the only jerk in the scenario. Sometimes a marriage does fail because of one person. Not all women have been scorned and are looking to punish their ex-husbands. Clearly, this was your case.

        I think the fact that every therapist involved in this case, who have reported incidents to CAS and have never once questioned my parenting, speaks volumes. I am the one who is in therapy, so I can deal with my fears and anger in a healty manner, while he spends his life blaming everyone else for his problems.

        Sorry, but asking when my children will be picked up, returned and where they'll be sleeping, isn't harassment. We've been apart nearly a year, and this is the first time I've ever asked any of the above questions. The only contact I ever have with him is by email, to inform him of medical appointments and school events. Phoning the kids once a day to say goodnight is not being on the phone 24/7 (we are talking 2 to 5 minutes in total), and in fact, his offer to settle included that option.

        To say that being abusive is NOT his fault, is really puzzling. I didn't realize that spraining his son's arm out of anger, is merely his choice of how to parent. Calling my kids "dumb ass", "numb nuts" and "loser", is his way of parenting. But hey, he's a father, and he can choose to raise his children any way he wants, right?

        Since he's the father, he is entitled to abuse his children without my harassment or interference. I'll pass that info along to my children. You'd be a great candidate to work for CAS.

        Comment


        • #5
          I just want to say I read the OP and was feeling a lot of what Gary just said and decided to keep my mouth shut for a change. But yes, it does come across that way.

          One person can start a conflict but it takes two to maintain it.

          Comment


          • #6
            any one can be a mom or dad but it takes a special peron to BE a parent

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by littleman View Post
              any one can be a mom or dad but it takes a special peron to BE a parent
              Truer words have never been spoken.

              Cheers!

              Gary

              Comment


              • #8
                I kind of agree with both points of view. I don't know why some people are so harsh, rude and overbearing here sometimes...I wonder if its some superiority complex disorder. Its ok to state your point without being a jackass.

                Obviously, its very difficult to leave your kids in the custody of someone who you believe to have called them verbally abusive names...or even physically abused them. My first question would be why didn't CAS do anything if this was a proven allegation or is it still undergoing investigation? It sounds like some of the therapy was not mandated but on a voluntary basis. Is that normal in proven abuse situations? I haven't had any experience with CAS...so I'm just wondering how it works.

                Given that, however, he does...for better or worse...at the current moment have legal custody access to the children. And since he does, I think the focus needs to be...how do you manage to reduce trauma and chaos to the children when he has them?

                I was also married to a very controlling guy. In fact, I've received letters 1-year post separation through my lawyers office instructing me not to have any of my (supposedly) many male partners around my youngest child on the days that I have her. He actually had that drafted and mailed to me. My response? I laughed, kept the letter for my own amusement and ignored it. I pull it out whenever I need a giggle (in between all my lots and lots of dates). I find a lot of things highly amusing these days.

                My point is that you may need to loosen your grip a bit and may actually benefit your children in doing so. I'm not sure why its vital to know exactly where he is when he has the children since you aren't there with him...and can reach them by phone...but if its imperative that you do and he won't comply (perhaps for the reasons that Gary stated), maybe you can just ask the kids when you talk to them. I've also found that my stbx calling during my time with my daughters is a little disruptive. If I have something important for them to tell her father, I have them call him but if he interrupts me during my time for them (always just to "check on them"), I find it very bothersome. I do not do that to him. I respect the private time he shares with our children.

                The bottom line for kids is that, with all the flaws parents have, they love them and need both parents anyway. If he's spending any time with them taking them places, consider yourself lucky because they do need that relationship. I know how much you love your kids but I would relax a little. Believe it or not, I've found that since my separation my stbx is at times a better father. I'm hoping that with time, he continues to be so for my kids' sake.

                Again, all of the above I say with the caveat that physically and verbal abuse of children is intolerable. So if that's going on, you definitely need to pursue it in court.

                Best wishes!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Also after first reading I was thinking the same thing as Gary and Mess. The problem is that "Abusive" can mean that he yelled at you once, or he beat the living hell out of you and your children. How are we to know when the word is used so commonly by everyone. I am sure that all of our ex's would say that we were abusive, and many of us would say our ex's were abusive. With only reading a bit of the situation its very hard to figure out an answer for people and going into detail will make a HUGE post so we do our best. But for 3 members to feel the same way when reading it may say something about at least the way you came across.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mess View Post
                    I just want to say I read the OP and was feeling a lot of what Gary just said and decided to keep my mouth shut for a change. But yes, it does come across that way.

                    One person can start a conflict but it takes two to maintain it.
                    I feel the same way.

                    Specifically, he has an issue with telling you exactly where he is with the kids etc. I would let that go for now - ask him, sure, but don't make a big deal out of it. Ask the kids if they know if you really must know.

                    He should tell you what you want to know, I agree with you, BUT the issue is what should you do about it for you own sake and the kids - ignore it for now. When he picks them up say have a good time with a smile and when he drops them off the same.

                    Your lawyers advice to stop him from picking up the kids for the camping trip because he does not want to tell you exactly where they are going is BAD ADVICE - they are not your kids, they are both of yours, and the kids will lose out on a camping trip, and there will probably be a big scene - totally bad advice!!!! That sounds controlling on your part to me.

                    He may have control issues, but you have to let him be in charge of him and his time with the kids - you are complaining about his controlling you when the kids are with HIM. Just don't let him control you or your time with the kids.

                    He is a parent - sounds like he is trying by taking them places etc - so support him the best you can and over time things will work out - you have to take the high road all the time - which can be draining, but is the ONLY way to go.

                    FYI, I find my ex calls me controlling sometimes when I won't do what SHE says - odd!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by billm View Post
                      IFYI, I find my ex calls me controlling sometimes when I won't do what SHE says - odd!
                      Yep, mine as well

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        I'm seeking sole custody, he is seeking joint. My reason being that he was abusive and beyond controlling, and there has always been a power imbalance. I'm also the one who made all the medical and educational decisions for the kids, so I don't feel that should change. He's also controlling and emotionally abusive with my kids. The OCL is involved, trying to determine custody/access.
                        If you are living "seperate and apart" now it is difficult for him to be "controlling". Don't let your past experience overshadow the relationship your children should have with both parents.

                        I would look up Uric v. Uric and "parallel parenting" and be prepared to recommend and/or accept a form of joint custody in the mode of "parallel parenting". Gary makes excellent points and I would give his post a deep long read.

                        Also, be careful with the argument that only "one parent" is able to take children to the doctors and other routine appointments. Unless the other parent has some recognized disability or disorder there is no reason the other parent couldn't 'learn' to do these tasks.

                        If the other parent refused to take the children to these appointments then you have a different problem. But, you may be seen as controlling yourself by not allowing the other parent to be involved with your children's service providers. Isolating a parent just because "you did it in the past" is a controlling act itself possibly.

                        The other parent should have their own relationship with the service providers and you should work together on major decisions in my opinion.



                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        Being the pessimist that I am, I'm dealing with worse case scenario. If they decide on joint custody, I have no idea how I'm going to handle this.
                        I would recommend to the OCL a detailed joint custody arrangement in the mode of "parallel parenting" with clear lines defining who does what. The sharing of childcare information is not "controlling" it is what should be done.

                        Often a controlling parent will withhold childcare information to control the other parent and gain an upper hand in a matrimonial dispute. You should be transparent with the other parent in all matters important to your children in my opinion.

                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        My daughter was in therapy before we physically split up. I had to temporarily stop therapy, because my ex started cleaning out the bank account each pay, and I couldn't afford to continue with her therapy.
                        You can go to your family practitioner and request a referral for therapy and it may be covered under provincial health care. But, that would require a referral and consent from the other parent until such time OCL makes a decision. Now that you are before the OCL I wouldn't (my opinion) make any moves without notifying the other parent when it comes to the mental health (or physical health) of your children.


                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        Once I moved out, I made her therapy one of my top priorities, and started it back up again. When I pointed out to him, that I'm paying for everything, he got all wound up and said I needed his permission to put her in therapy.
                        Well, technically there is a status quo with the clinician providing health care to your child. I would go to your family practitioner and see what should be done and sign a release for both your family practitioner and the therapist (hopefully licensed by a governing body of some type) so the OCL can speak with them. The other parent will have to sign a similar consent but, should they not it is my opinion that the OCL should take a negative inference on that in their decision.


                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        I told him it was the same therapist she was going to before, and it only stopped, because he was spending all our money. He demanded for the therapist's name and number (yes, it was the same therapist she went to while we were married). I provided both and told her therapist what happened. She said she'd need his consent and began calling HIM, leaving messages. He did not return her calls.
                        The therapist is actually right in the situation. The therapist's governing body does not allow treatment without consent. You did the right thing seeking consent.


                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        My lawyer wrote a letter, telling him to kindly give his consent and stop ignoring her calls. He claimed she never called (she left three messages) and said he would call her. Nope. Finally, after a month of this nonsense, she finally got hold of him, and he gave consent.
                        Now, I do have some comments regarding this statement. Did your lawyer ask or specifically "tell" the other parent to consent. Telling versus asking providing the particulars as to why the consent is being requested are two very different things. Telling someone demonstrates a controlling behaviour pattern. I hope you don't have a bulldog lawyer who threatens more than collaborates. You may win a battle but, you could lose the war.

                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        Now, being summer, he got two non-consecutive weeks with the kids. I knew he planned on going out of town with them (they told me), so I emailed, asking that he please provide me with the name of the hotel, phone number and how long they would be out of town. He ignored four emails with this request. He finally texted me and said they were already out of town and he had his cell. I reminded him that he was to tell me before they left, and asked what hotel they were at and for the number. He gave me the name and told me to find the number on the internet. Being that this was a hotel chain, there were two in that city, so I had to text back and ask which one. He also didn't let me know (depspite another four emails), when he was returning my children. He didn't reply until the morning that he was supposed to return them, only to say it would be the following morning.
                        You have every right to ask for this information. Every parent has a right to know where their children are sleeping every night no matter what parent they are residing with. Just be mindful of "how" you request the information. Although you are correct on your right how you execute that right and inform the other parent to this right is key.

                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        I told my lawyer what happened, and he said that the next week he took the kids, I shouldn't release them into his care, until he provides me with this very basic information.
                        I find the solicitor's recommendation suspect. I doubt that a qualified solicitor in family law would instruct anyone to withhold a child's access to the other parent. There are much better and non-conflictual ways of resolving this problem.

                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        So, in order to avoid a scene, I emailed him on Monday, saying that I know he is planning on taking the kids camping, and to kindly let me know which Provincial Park they were going to, from what date until what date (I call the kids to say goodnight at their request), and what time he would be picking them up from my home and when he would be returning them. I asked that he please let me know by Thursday (he gets them on Monday, but wanted the information before the weekend, in case I needed to call my lawyer). I also told him that I would be out of town for two days with them at the end of the month, told him which hotel we would be at, which dates and provided the hotel's number (despite the fact that he never calls them).
                        Excellent way to handle it. Should the other parent disregard your request it is best the solicitor handle the situation afterwards.

                        Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                        Well, it's now Friday and no reply.

                        How am I supposed to co-parent with this man? He only replies to emails that he wants to reply to. Or, alternatively, he only answers parts of various emails and ignores other parts. If I don't reply to one of his emails within hours, he texts me with the content of the email, so I am forced to reply right then and there. I feel overwhelmed that for the next ten years or so, I am going to be at this man's mercy. I left the marriage to get away from his need to control everyone, and I still feel like he's calling all the shots. I'm so frustrated and I want peace for the sake of my kids.
                        How are you supposed to co-parent with this man? You don't have to. You can "parallel parent" with him though. Investigate the options around parallel parenting.

                        Furthermore, you are not required to respond instantly to his request. This is a personal anxiety you may have about the situation. If the matter he sends is urgent then reply but, if you need time you can simply notify him that you received the message.

                        I would recommend that you consider moving your conversation into a managed platform like Empower your shared child custody. - OurFamilyWizard | child custody | parenting time. It will provide him notification when you read a message etc. That should ease his need for constant feedback.

                        Email is a challenging medium to use for parental communications in my opinion. Spam filters, viruses, crashes, failures, et all... tend to make it an unreliable mode of communications. Furthermore, there is no way to insure the delivery and receipt of regular email. He can simply walk into court and deny sending or receiving the email. It is very easy for a high conflict parent (as you have described) to suggest that the the emails are forgeries. It is hard to prove the originality of email. Look at all the spam messages you get every day that no service provider can locate the originating sender or it was sent from a spoofed sender.

                        All is not lost and you can parallel parent but, the rules need to be defined on what information is essential in that situation.

                        Good luck!
                        Tayken

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OP: You need to be very careful about how you word things. Your post comes across as being controlling and nitpicky. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but it's a learning experience.

                          That being said, your ex SHOULD be telling you when he plans on taking the children out of the province. (He's NOT obligated to tell you the hotel/etc as long as you have A contact number...ie. his cell, that can be used in the event of a true emergency).

                          Family court is all about 1. your side of the story and 2. being able to BACK UP your side of the story.

                          Your requests to be provided information that went ignored and the info re: the therapist are footnotes to one, MAYBE two bullet points in your case to show his lack of cooperation. THAT'S it.

                          FYI the amount of requests you are making is excessive.

                          Do it ONCE, put a time frame on it. If he ignores it, you have your lawyer send HIS lawyer an Angry Attorney Letter indicating that if he's taking them out of province he needs to be letting you know in advance.

                          Rinse and repeat. You can attach the email request and a copy of the letter as affidavit evidence to support the single bullet point. (That he's uncooperative and non communicative) and request that a clause be put into the agreement that out of province trips be communicated in advance.

                          If (once you have a final order) and he ignores that clause, AND you can prove it, it's contempt. Typically you wait until you have a couple of incidences of contempt and then go to court to have his wrist slapped.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                            So you feel that a woman who has been abused, whose children have been and continue to be abused, is the one with control issues? Believe it or not, sometimes the father IS the only jerk in the scenario. Sometimes a marriage does fail because of one person. Not all women have been scorned and are looking to punish their ex-husbands. Clearly, this was your case.
                            Interesting perspective. Here is my take on this. Emotional abuse is subjective to the cognative patterns of the person being emotionally abused. There are underlying cognative distortions (possibly an anxiety disorder or personality disorder - avoidant) underlying the cognitive patterns of thinking that is being interpreted as "emotional abuse".

                            Furthermore, emotional abuse and being a victim of it generally demonstrates a larger underlying problem in the victim. The vast majority of humans who have confidence do not allow others to emotionally abuse them and do protect themselves.

                            If the person being "emotionally abused" (in my opinion) doesn't seek help for being a victim of the abuse one should question if the abuse ever occurred. Be warned: Judges often ask the victim of "emotional abuse" what help they have sought. If you have no response it isn't really a good answer.

                            There is a reason that criminal charges cannot be laid in the case of "emotional abuse"... because it is subjective to the cognitive patterns of the victim. What may be normal behaviour in the world may be "abusive" to someone who is avoidant or has an anxiety disorder.\

                            I am not suggesting you are. Just pointing things out.

                            [/quote]

                            Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                            I think the fact that every therapist involved in this case, who have reported incidents to CAS and have never once questioned my parenting, speaks volumes. I am the one who is in therapy, so I can deal with my fears and anger in a healty manner, while he spends his life blaming everyone else for his problems.
                            Excellent. Furthermore you have identified a very important thing about the other parent. The PROJECTION OF BLAME. This is a common pattern of behaviour in high-conflict people. Also, congratulations for seeking the help you needed and having the confidence to do so. It demonstrates a lot and I hope you recommend this first and foremost to those who have been abused.

                            Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                            Sorry, but asking when my children will be picked up, returned and where they'll be sleeping, isn't harassment. We've been apart nearly a year, and this is the first time I've ever asked any of the above questions. The only contact I ever have with him is by email, to inform him of medical appointments and school events. Phoning the kids once a day to say goodnight is not being on the phone 24/7 (we are talking 2 to 5 minutes in total), and in fact, his offer to settle included that option.
                            I agree it isn't harassment. How you ask, the tone and frequency may be. But, you can't get arrested for email unless you make a threat of physical harm or demonstrate your intent is to psychologically harm someone.

                            Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                            To say that being abusive is NOT his fault, is really puzzling. I didn't realize that spraining his son's arm out of anger, is merely his choice of how to parent. Calling my kids "dumb ass", "numb nuts" and "loser", is his way of parenting. But hey, he's a father, and he can choose to raise his children any way he wants, right?
                            As I can't confirm any of these events are true I will address my observations from a different angle.

                            Had the other parent caused your son physical injury then criminal charges should have been laid. If they have not been and CAS was not involved in the matter and made a determination of abuse you are simply providing your projection of your emotional facts the situation and not the facts. (Not being mean just making an observation.)

                            Also, parents often have a difference of opinion how to raise their children. You may disagree with his style but, children are adaptable to different parental styles. They adapt to teachers, coaches and other people's styles every day. Why should the other parent be any different?

                            I am not making light of what you have said. Just putting it into a different context for the majority of readers.

                            Originally posted by ProudMomof3 View Post
                            Since he's the father, he is entitled to abuse his children without my harassment or interference. I'll pass that info along to my children. You'd be a great candidate to work for CAS.
                            He has a right to parent the children without harassment or interference. What difference is it to you if he claims you are harassing him. It only demonstrates his high-conflict personality and benefits you in the long run. I see you are totally frustrated with the situation at the current moment but, don't lose sight of the larger picture.

                            Good luck!
                            Tayken

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In defense of Gary and Mess

                              Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
                              I kind of agree with both points of view. I don't know why some people are so harsh, rude and overbearing here sometimes...I wonder if its some superiority complex disorder. Its ok to state your point without being a jackass.
                              There could be an argument made possibly that Mess and Gary demonstrate narcissistic patterns of behaviour. But, I think the argument that they are just well educated professionals who are knowledgeable in separated family situations is the case.

                              To be truly a narcissist (Axis II - Cluster B) or even claim that they suffer from a mental disorder is a hard argument to make. For one the arguments they make although often emotionally charged are grounded in strong facts. Narcissists often make emotional projections without being able to backup their projections.

                              Mess and Gary (and others who often get labeled as "jackasses") always have an answer and backing facts to the statements they give. If you engage them deep enough in the debate they often end up in case law supporting their position. A narcissist will just end on "because I said so" generally.

                              Also, it is hard for Mess and Gary to educate every person who comes to the message board on all the past discussions that have occurred. They often point people on the right path to discovering the information for themselves either in the form or elsewhere. A narcissist harbours information to "win" in an argument. They use it as a weapon and hit people over the head with it. It is rare that I have seen any of these people end an argument with "I win" or act in a manner that I would consider to be disordered.

                              Emotions are driving a lot of the discussions here but, Gary, Mess, et all... who are labeled as "jackasses" clarify their position not just on "emotional facts" but real tangible facts.

                              They are here to help taking their experiences and providing them to others. Even though they disagree with me at times I find their point of view incredibly useful and helps shape the discussions even though the original poster may not like the answer.

                              Also I just noticed NBDad posted to this thread. He is often thrown into this category of "jackasses" and is one of the best contributors as well. Heed his comments at all times as well.

                              Good luck!
                              Tayken
                              Last edited by Tayken; 08-12-2011, 11:27 AM. Reason: Update

                              Comment

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