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  • #61
    I believe that this thread has shown how unqualified (albeit well-meaning) front-line workers can get swept up into a very biased assessment of the clients they are supposed to be helping.

    This is a good reason why we have lawyers who ascertain someone's credentials prior to their testimony in court.

    Comment


    • #62
      I know this is not popular view, but I want to stand up for the shelter workers. It isn't their job to determine who is right and who is wrong or to ponder all the variables of every situation. They simply don't have the time or the resources to act as investigators. Their job is to provide the best services they can to the clients who seek them out.

      I also know from experience that most shelter workers are very well aware that not all clients are "perfect" victims and that at times, they are being played. But they are so overloaded that they have to concentrate on helping the people who come through their doors.

      I also know that shelters get dozens of calls, emails and letters every day from the spouses of clients who who feel the need to explain that the client is lying or very confused or it's all a misunderstandings whatever. Some of these spouses are genuinely perplexed individuals who were blindsided by their spouse defecting, some of them are involved in dysfunctional relationships which go around and around and never end, and some are out-and-out lying sociopaths. But the shelter's job is not to sort out who is who and which is which, it's to treat every client equally, kind of like an emergency room.

      Getting upset with the shelter because they don't sort out the "real" victims from the "not so real" ones is like getting upset with an emergency room because they don't perform brain surgery. The shelters are acting within the law and within their mandate.

      Comment


      • #63
        This shelter failed. This counselor should not be talking to my daughter as she has never witnessed violence. I'm not bashing shelters ... if you read my posts I acknowledge over and over that they are needed and help ppl.

        I'm not comfortable with an unqualified shelter woman speaking to D4 in some form of weird therapy about witnessing violence....and telling me I have no say.

        It's not right. That's all Im saying.

        This topic was simply to try and navigate what I should do. ..if anything.

        Comment


        • #64
          LF... the shelter didn't fail. The shelter is going off what your ex said, and because she is a women who 'claimed' domestic violence, they have to act on that. Have you proven to the shelter there was no violence? Is that anywhere in any court documents? Does your court order specify who D4 can and can't speak to?

          You have to understand from the shelters point of view they are 'protecting' mom and the child. If mom has not revealed to them that there wasn't actually any violence they are going to continue on doing what they do, especially if mom keeps bring D4 there.

          A women's shelter isn't about to believe a man when he says there was no violence, they have to err on the side of caution. I think your biggest beef should be with mom and her continuing to take D4 there and not with the shelter for them doing what they are meant to do (even though in your case it isn't needed)

          Comment


          • #65
            I agree with you BF in that the shelter likely has only heard one side of the story (which is all they usually ever hear). If LF32 wants to end the charade then it is up to him to perhaps let the shelter know that he shares 50/50 custody of the child, ON CONSENT.

            I can certainly understand LF32's angst in not wanting his child to have anything whatsoever to do with the shelter.

            Now that LF32 has his daughter 1/2 of the time he should be able to ascertain whether or not the child is being exposed to the centre at all. If she is he should address the matter first with his ex.

            Comment


            • #66
              Shelters are great and needed ... just some tweaks and improvements

              Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
              LF... the shelter didn't fail.
              They did fail in many ways. As Tayken pointed out, their sponsors funded my ex's rampage for going on 3 years. They also are under the impression that I have no say, involvement or no parental rights when it comes to inappropriate counselling for D4. Basically "take a hike and mind your own business". I agree that they have to take ex's word and act......but I'm the biological father and any medical/life-altering intervention I should have the right to be involved. Fail in my books.

              Have you proven to the shelter there was no violence? Is that anywhere in any court documents?
              They told me that their job isn't to verify if there was abuse in a relationship they told me. Of course I told them that the allegations thoroughly analyzed by judges and tossed. Again, the onus should be on my ex to prove there was violence...not on my to prove there wasn't. My point is...they dont care about dad's documented evidence that there wasn't any abuse. I havent stopped in with the court order yet specifying that we must consult regarding health and can inquire and be given any information regarding health related issues.

              You have to understand from the shelters point of view they are 'protecting' mom and the child.
              Ignoring evidence from police/CAS/judges that there was "no" abuse? Protect from what? There was no abuse. 3 years of services, housing, lawyer, denied access to D4. At what point will a shelter realize what a game player is vs a real abused woman?

              They ignored real evidence and listened to her BS and assisted her journey.

              Ex has even admitted now that there was no abuse in the SC...that it was blown out of proportion and she was sorry....BUT....shelter's witness counselor still invading a 4 year old's mind? Honestly, who on these forums would be okay with this if it was your child?

              A women's shelter isn't about to believe a man when he says there was no violence, they have to err on the side of caution.
              A women's shelter should not allow any individual to reign terror for 3 years and use every service imaginable ....with piles of evidence (not just a "man" saying") there was no abuse whatsoever. This seems so darn logical to me Am I missing something? I get the erring of caution...but what about after it was proven there was no violence and 3 years later?

              Also, if the alleged abuse was so horriffic, what shelter worker in their right mind would say..."hey..make a case girl...here's a recording device". Dont leave the relationship unil you have a ton of freebies". Again .. Fail in my books.

              Just to be clear..I'm talking about my case. Im not generalizing this to all shelters nor there workers.

              Many people like to talk about how I dont know the laws. Yet nobody has posted the law saying that I have no say in mental health counseling for our 4 year old.

              1. I do hold the center responsible for telling me to take a hike. Sorry if you disagree.

              2. I do believe I have a right to be involved, given info and to have a say

              3. Posters like S&T come on here belittling and name-calling and creating this big conspiracy that I'm against all shelters. Nope....all Im saying is that

              a) They need to find a way to weed out insincere game players looking for free rides. Im sure this isnt where sponsors want their money going. Is this such an irrational statement?

              b) Both parents should be involved and consent to therapy or medical decisions...not just mom. Especially in a case like mine where there is an abuse counselor spekaing to D4 1-1 in the absense of any abuse. Enough already. I wont take a hike shelter..sorry. Leave D4 alone. It's wrong.

              Make no mistake .. shelters are a great service that assist many. Some tweaks and improvements are needed though obviously. That's all Im saying.

              Comment


              • #67
                So LF, let me phrase it this way... in 20 years your daughter finds herself in an abusive relationship... she has a young child as well. The only way she feels safe is to go to a women's shelter. Her partner finds out she is at this shelter so calls the shelter and states she is lying, there was no abuse. Your stance is that the shelter workers should believe her partner and not her. Your granddaughter witnessed abuse towards her mother, her little mind is racing. But without consent from her dad she can't speak to anyone. Is an abusive parent going to give consent? Not a chance, so instead the shelter says 'sorry your ex says there was no abuse we can't help you, you must go and your daughter too'.

                So now they have a choice of being on the street or going back to the abusers house. Don't think for a second they would come to you because people who are abused try to hide it from their friends and family. So your daughter and granddaughter are back in the abusers house being subjected to even more abuse.

                You saying they have to weed out the real abused from the make belief, and have father's involved, while nice in theory, in reality they don't have time to do that. It's not their job. What would your reaction be if you found out your daughter was told to leave the shelter because her abuser said there was no abuse and didn't consent to his daughter being there?

                I get you are upset and rightfully so, but don't blame the shelter for your ex's doing. All that is in the past, your ex screwed up huge and despite all her lies, you have ended up with 50/50. Until your ex pulls out of the shelter, there is little you can do unless you have a court order stating the shelter as a party to the litigation.

                Stop putting your effort into this, it is going to eat you alive,. You have your daughter equally as much as your ex. You know how much my husband would love to have his children equally? He was never given that chance... him and his ex planned to relocate together he got a job in the new area, they put their house up for sale and his ex and kids were going to move with him at Christmas break. Well he moved and started his new job, his ex EMAILED him and told him it was over and to not come home, she took the house off the market and he was reduced to a EOW parent. He got a lawyer, but this small town older lawyer told him not to fight mom on custody, he would lose. He didn't have this forum at the start and now it does not matter.

                Focus on your child and your time with her. We all know your ex screwed up but move forward and stop bringing the last with you. You made it through m be very proud of yourself for that

                Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

                Comment


                • #68
                  The agreement you signed with your ex is relevant:

                  1. The parties shall consult with each other on all issues concerning D4's health, education, religion and general well-being (joint)

                  2. If the issue is related to parenting then the parties agree to attend family counselling at __,or__,etc. If the issue is relate to health decisions, they will consult the child's pediatrician.

                  There is little you can do if a women's crisis centre feels that the counselling they provide to children is not "medical." That is there opinion. You, on the other hand, differ in opinion. If you perceive that the counselling being received by your daughter is inappropriate you have every right to object to this. Your agreement, however, specifically states that you are to consult with each other on any and all decisions.

                  So, if you find out your daughter continues to see a counsellor at the women's centre you should immediately alert your ex that you object. If she is insistent then you would probably be smart to immediately take your daughter to child's paediatrician for a consult. This is what your agreement stipulates and you should follow the agreement in the absence of direction from the court.

                  By the sounds of things your ex has followed court direction to date. Hopefully she will continue to do so in the future.

                  I wouldn't give the centre too much thought going forward. Your ex found a willing ear and manipulated the crisis centre to her benefit for the past 2 years is all. She isn't the first to do this and certainly won't be the last. False accusers are the sludge of family law IMO. As 98% of family law cases are settled out-of-court I believe that these centres will not be held accountable for their roles, in perpetrating the accuser's lies, any time soon in the future.

                  In hindsight, what action on your part do you think could have shortened the process and effected the same outcome for you LF32?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I have moved on.
                    The shelter hasn't for some reason. Even with tons of evidence abuse didn't occur....my ex even admitted there wasn't any.

                    I'm sorry but it's unhealthy for D4 to continue with this unqualified abuse counselor who tells dads to F off and take a hike. I've had about enough abuse from the system.

                    Where are my rights as a biological father with joint custody?

                    To look out for D4's best interests? ....which includes being free of abuse counseling from unqualified counselors.
                    Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-19-2016, 10:27 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Woops. ..double post
                      Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-19-2016, 10:50 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        The agreement you signed with your ex is relevant:

                        1. The parties shall consult with each other on all issues concerning D4's health, education, religion and general well-being (joint)

                        2. If the issue is related to parenting then the parties agree to attend family counselling at __,or__,etc. If the issue is relate to health decisions, they will consult the child's pediatrician.

                        There is little you can do if a women's crisis centre feels that the counselling they provide to children is not "medical." That is there opinion. You, on the other hand, differ in opinion. If you perceive that the counselling being received by your daughter is inappropriate you have every right to object to this. Your agreement, however, specifically states that you are to consult with each other on any and all decisions.

                        So, if you find out your daughter continues to see a counsellor at the women's centre you should immediately alert your ex that you object. If she is insistent then you would probably be smart to immediately take your daughter to child's paediatrician for a consult. This is what your agreement stipulates and you should follow the agreement in the absence of direction from the court.

                        By the sounds of things your ex has followed court direction to date. Hopefully she will continue to do so in the future.

                        I wouldn't give the centre too much thought going forward. Your ex found a willing ear and manipulated the crisis centre to her benefit for the past 2 years is all. She isn't the first to do this and certainly won't be the last. False accusers are the sludge of family law IMO. As 98% of family law cases are settled out-of-court I believe that these centres will not be held accountable for their roles, in perpetrating the accuser's lies, any time soon in the future.

                        In hindsight, what action on your part do you think could have shortened the process and effected the same outcome for you LF32?
                        Great final question Arabian. I'll get back to you on this one.

                        Regarding the counseling. ...I'm not sending them letters. ..filing law suits...Etc.

                        The entire purpose of the topic was to discuss\figure out consent laws. Are they on the right side of the law to say I have no voice. ...even if it has a negative impact psychologically on D4 ( which it surely could). Are mental health interventions considered medical? Yes. Could it be life altering for a 4 year old. Yes. Should I have a say in All this? I strongly believe I should?

                        That being said. ...I lay low for now and Arabians correct. Of I hear about more of this unqualified shelter woman speaking to D4 she will be in contempt of the order and we'll go from there.

                        But if anybody has laws/statutes on consent regarding witness counselors that would be greatly appreciated. it's such a grey area and nobody seems to know for sure.[/QUOTE]

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          The other question is why is mommy still taking the child now that there is a signed agreement that has the above para 1? Even if it is not "medical" then it is "educational" and requires your consent and you do not consent.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            LF... if you are so sure this is having such an impact on D4, why are you not talking to her pediatrician about it? Getting him/her involved? By your own admissions, D4 is a happy, healthy girl and showing no signs of anything but a happy child when with you.

                            Again, you are focusing on the wrong aspects. Btw, contempt will be hard to prove, it takes multiple times to get contempt. Even that, can ex not argue D4 was in this before the court order and should finish her sessions? Have you even talked to ex about this? Written refusal? I would stop with the shelter and deal with ex.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              It's possible for an organized activity to be neither educational nor medical. What about Girl Guides? Or a Big Brother/Big Sister programme?

                              I enrolled my kid in a weekly children-of-divorce group back in the early days where they talked about feelings, stress, etc. I did get my ex's consent before doing so because I thought it was the right thing to do in my situation, but there were lots of other parents with much more hostile situations (including domestic violence situations) who did not get the other parent on board, and this was fine. If it had been necessary that both parents consented, half the kids in the group would not have been there. Similarly, in the case of a shelter, it is simply unrealistic to expect that both parents will agree to a child participating in programmes at the shelter. If both parents could agree, one of them wouldn't be living in the shelter.

                              The shelter is not a party to LF's order, so they can't be in contempt of it. The services being offered are not medical or educational, there is no evidence they are harmful to Kid, and they're within the shelter's mandate. By all means LF should bring this up with Mom if he objects and maybe she will agree to remove Kid from these programmes, but there is nothing illegal happening here.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                                LF... if you are so sure this is having such an impact on D4, why are you not talking to her pediatrician about it? Getting him/her involved?
                                I made an appointment months back and met with her pediatrician. If you recall he directed me to provide a court order for any health/medical info. He indicated that my ex hadn't mentioned anything about any behavioral issues nor had he noticed any during their visits.

                                I've never stated that D4 has been impacted at all, but why not prevent the possibility?
                                She is a perfect, amazing, intelligent little girl in my care.

                                Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                                Even that, can ex not argue D4 was in this before the court order and should finish her sessions?
                                My point is even without a court order, when custody has yet to be established should both parents not have the right to make pertinent decisions about their child? Especially if the counselor is not an experienced child psychologist who has dealt with children going through divorce.

                                Children's mental health interventions should be handled with caution, serious damage can be done with irresponsible communication by the therapist. There's a vast amout of research on this topic and it shouldn't be taken lightly. Children have sensitive young psyche's and they should be handled with care. So I'm not witnessing any behaviors, but I'd rather not wait for them to begin.

                                Again, you are focusing on the wrong aspects
                                I am focusing on one aspect only, D4's best interests (for reasons like the above). A witness counselor asked for my consent, I declined and re-offered my ex 4 certified child psychologists (and to pay for them) ..... I thought that was quite reasonable and in D4's best interests. I'm also the one who scheduled the Dr appt which she refused to attend. The OCL even refused our case.

                                Have you even talked to ex about this? Written refusal? I would stop with the shelter and deal with ex.
                                Yes of course I have written refusals to my ex about this. They are polite and as mentioned above I offered neutral, qualified alternatives.

                                Just to be clear, I haven't stated anywhere that I was going after the shelter. If it continues I will politely refer them to the court order, if that fails I'll go from there.

                                In fact I don't want to go after anybody .. not sure how that got thrown in to the mix but I will say that I'll figure out my rights so that I can protect D4 from any possible repercussions. If the shelter can tell the father to Take a hike when custody is without prejudice or with joint and certain clauses prohibiting the from doing so.. and I find a law/statute fitting that description .. I'll go from there I guess.

                                The whole thing puzzles me really .. all I know is that I'm loving every second of my time with D4.. ex and I are getting along well .. maybe this will just disappear.

                                Comment

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