Sick and Sad (beginning of alienation)

[dinkyface]

Venting.

I just left our daughter's daycare xmas party (3.5yo) in disgust. It was on my ex's time so she had 'control'.

The few times our daughter and I were sitting together we were fine and happy. As soon as my ex appears, my daughter turns off, gets up to go to mom, and refuses to interact further with me.

It appears she is learning that when in mom's environment it is not permitted to interact with dad. The same happens when I pick her up from daycare (another mom-environment) - sometimes great unhappiness at my presence and wailing for mummy. Then after 15 minutes together we are happy again, and she does not mention mummy again - it's like she needs to rearrange her 'mindframe'. And even on handover back to mom, daughter is burbling kisses and happy goodbyes to me (so the indoctrination is not quite complete).

Sigh.

Pretty sure all I can do is just make sure daughter knows she is secure with and loved by me, whatever else she might be hearing. But I'm really scared that a dad (alternate weekends and weds overnights) has no chance against what a very hostile mother can do to her daughter.

Scared... and honestly, angry.

If anyone has any ideas on how to combat this by talking directly with daughter **BUT IN POSITIVE WAY, WITHOUT CAUSING DISTRESS TO DAUGHTER OR SLANGING MOM** I'd love to hear them.

[tugofwar]

Venting.

I just left our daughter's daycare xmas party (3.5yo) in disgust. It was on my ex's time so she had 'control'.

The few times our daughter and I were sitting together we were fine and happy. As soon as my ex appears, my daughter turns off, gets up to go to mom, and refuses to interact further with me.

It appears she is learning that when in mom's environment it is not permitted to interact with dad. The same happens when I pick her up from daycare (another mom-environment) - sometimes great unhappiness at my presence and wailing for mummy. Then after 15 minutes together we are happy again, and she does not mention mummy again - it's like she needs to rearrange her 'mindframe'. And even on handover back to mom, daughter is burbling kisses and happy goodbyes to me (so the indoctrination is not quite complete).

Sigh.

Pretty sure all I can do is just make sure daughter knows she is secure with and loved by me, whatever else she might be hearing. But I'm really scared that a dad (alternate weekends and weds overnights) has no chance against what a very hostile mother can do to her daughter.

Scared... and honestly, angry.

If anyone has any ideas on how to combat this by talking directly with daughter **BUT IN POSITIVE WAY, WITHOUT CAUSING DISTRESS TO DAUGHTER OR SLANGING MOM** I'd love to hear them.

Could it just be her age? I know, I have witnessed my daughter screaming and not wanting to go with daddy but 5 minutes later she forgets about me and why she was crying.

It could be a number of other issues not directly relating to parent alienation.

[Mess]

I can't remark on your situation and I'm not there either with you or your ex. I can say though that when my son was 3, just after we separated, he hated going to his moms. He would cry and cry at leaving my house. He would try to refuse to go. Once I dropped him off her place and he screamed outside for 10 minutes begging me not to leave him there.

Thing is, she is not a bad mother and he is fine once he is there for 10 minutes. I know this because we have a 13 year old (who also tends to prefer my house but is fine with her mum too) who tells me he settles down right away at her house after he's there a while.

So I was in the opposite situation you are. I do my best to be fair with him, I tell him that he takes turns with his mum and me and now it is her turn. He is now 6 and he still asks if he can have more days with me, but he doesn't cry at all.

Young children have a hard time switching from one environment, or even activity, to another. If you two were still together your child would probably act the same way just being left at daycare. That doesn't mean they abuse him, nor does it mean you are alienating him from the daycare.

Being separated from your child hurts, and it hurts when they cry for the other parent. As much as I dislike my ex, I felt sorry for her when he cried about being left with her, I can imagine full well how that felt. We avoided having me drop him off at her house after that; she picks him up at daycare/school/camp now to avoid scenes like that and I don't blame her.

[dinkyface]

Agreed, I can understand that at that age she is quite motivated by desire to please (thankfully!), and since mom and dad are vey different, it takes different behaviours to please each, so there must be a 'shift' that she undergoes on each handover (what can that be doing to her psyche development!?). And that as she grows, she will have different adapting mechanisms. I would love to believe that is all it is.

And yes, I hate for other people to see it (that's my problem).. even though logically I know there are many other people who see us together happy as well.

But, there's more stuff that 'spills' out of our daughter unprompted (at unexpected times/places) when she's with me, e.g. daddy is bad, daddy should get a life (was *almost* funny to hear those words coming out of a 3yo), we don't like boys, and some other that I cannot mention here (yup, THAT).

Hopefully mom is not starting to use her daughter as confidante to her frustrations with my maddening presence.

[Rioe]

That age really needs routine and predictability, and warning of transitions. I used to have to tell my older son countdowns of when we'd stop doing one thing and move on to another. "We're leaving the park in ten minutes to go home. Five minutes, one minute, etc." Stuff like that. With everything. Although he couldn't tell time so I could be "flexible" about my countdown. He just needed to know the transition was coming, and have several warnings so he could adjust, and he also needed to know what the next activity would be.

Could you ask the daycare to give her some countdowns to when "Daddy will be here?" If they specifically mention that it's you coming several times, maybe that will help her to anticipate the right parent, and not get thrown for a loop when you show up when she might have been expecting her mother.

She's also hitting an age where she's discovering she has a gender and trying to figure out what that means, so it's natural for her to try to identify more with mom, and girls in general. This will get worse when she goes to JK!

I honestly wouldn't even worry about the "daddy is bad" stuff, although I don't know the context or your ex's attitude towards you. My 2.5 year old regularly calls me "Bad Mummy" usually when I'm taking something away from him or not letting him climb things, etc. I worry more that someone is telling him he's bad, than I do about my ex badmouthing me to him.

On the other hand, if it IS the beginning of parental alienation, it could be good to see it starting and put in some effort to defuse it, if you can. Tell the ex about the latest startling thing the child said, just as a sharing conversation, and see what her reaction is. When you're with your daughter, emphasize that we do not call people bad, or say bad things about them, it isn't nice. Don't get defensive or even mention you wonder if her mother is doing it, just concentrate on teaching her to be a good person, and she may learn to recognize when people around her aren't.

Good luck!

[Mominneed]

I don't think you'll get any answers out of your daughter at all about this situation -she's not at the age to even be able to communicate about it at all. I would however, start keeping a journal about all of these specific things to see if there's a pattern to it and to have some documentation should there be more obvious signs of parental alienation.

[tugofwar]

Dinky, sometimes it's all about how you handle yourself too. If the child feels tension then that doesn't help the situation. Child might feel stuck in the middle too. I couldn't imagine what these poor children have to go though to adjust and especially at that age.
You are going to have to learn how to deal with these and maybe not take it so personally. I know easier said then done. I don't know what type of relationship you have with your ex. If both can realize the problem or somewhat work together to make it an easier transition I think that would be the best step. But as far as alienation I couldn't comment further.

[dinkyface]

Poor girl was not happy at the party - distressed, lost, seeking comfort (and for some reason, mom wasn't giving it). Unfortunately I doubt there is much in terms of cooperation or communication I can expect from mom. I keep all of our communications absolutely neutral and courteous (email only), but she has made it clear that she will respond only on the absolute minimums i.e. schedule stuff or major medical (and even then, it is like pulling teeth).

The 'disturbing comments' are odd - they are definitely not triggered by any related circumstance or mood, and with no 'conviction'/meaning in their delivery (like a parrot) - and in all cases, it was when we were starting to prepare to go back to mommy's house.

Thanks for your comments all. Keeping perspective. Keeping records. Looking for teaching opportunities on 'relating'/being nice etc. And being glad that this is not affecting our time together - that's our magic time :-)

Possibly also should consider avoiding situations where the 3 of us are together, since it seems that it will only distress our girl.

Oh, and by the way... why DO we like boys???? I mean, they're so noisy and always knocking us over or hitting us! All of the answers I can come up with are either gender-stereotyping or apply equally well to girls!!! Gah! you can't win!!!.

[billiechic]

My daughter also gets distressed when my ex and I are in the same room too. At her Chrstmas concert she took turns sitting with us and when we left she made sure she was holding both of our hands. Your ex needs to cooperate with you on this. Please bring it up and let her know that your girl is feeling like she has to choose sides, and she doesn't.

Boys...hmmm...My little girl likes playng blocks wth the boys at daycare. Most of the girls don't play so she likes that. And some of the boys play dress up and role playng games wth the girls. You just have to show her that boys can be fun too..you're a boy..so show her that you can do the things she likes too.

Think of some "girly things" like baking or playing dolls and do them with her. Make some Christmas cookies or decorate a gingerbread house. Sometmes dad's are more fun becasue they're not as worried about getting dirty or what other people think.

[dinkyface]

Thanks billiechic, that helps (though sorry to hear of others having the problem). Will think about how to approach this with ex. I have to be very careful to only raise things that are clearcut problems. 99.9% sure she'll just ignore it, and give herself a private whoop of victory.

Oh yes... we bake (and dance, and dress up)! Lots of messy fun. Often we package up some of the creations as presents for mummy (which is even more fun to see mom's sour/suspicious reaction).

[billiechic]

Often we package up some of the creations as presents for mummy (which is even more fun to see mom's sour/suspicious reaction).

You have to get your kicks somewhere!

[Garnet Mierau]

wow, reading this thread makes me realize that I'm "not alone"...go figure! I've been separated for just over a year now and have watched my 8yo daughter slowly transform in front of me. My take...she is doing what ever she can to gain approval from her mom. Once it's just one-one with daddy, all is good...plenty of laughs, hugs and good times. I don't have any concrete solutions to offer other than my own belief in myself and who I am - a great dad!! Time will heal.

[AnarX]

e.g. daddy is bad, daddy should get a life (was *almost* funny to hear those words coming out of a 3yo), we don't like boys, and some other that I cannot mention here (yup, THAT).

Hopefully mom is not starting to use her daughter as confidante to her frustrations with my maddening presence.

That is exactly what she is doing.

Her mother is nuts and selfish. Plain and simple.




The odds are that your daughter is acting to impress her mother. This is a bad reflection on her mother. Crying and pitching a fit is the child's way of getting attention. Out of necessity, this is part of your child's survival mechanism unfortunately. Your daughter has learned what she needs to deliver to her mother to maintain her mother's peace.

If anyone has any ideas on how to combat this by talking directly with daughter **BUT IN POSITIVE WAY, WITHOUT CAUSING DISTRESS TO DAUGHTER OR SLANGING MOM** I'd love to hear them.

Do not discuss anything because the odds are that you can not intelligently explain anything WITHOUT slagging mom.

You have to be patient. Just keep doing the same thing. When your daughter is older, she will recognize normal. There is probably more nonsense and drama at her mother's place that will gradually push her away.