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  • Cost submissions - requesting to submit a rebuttal

    Had a motion. Ex filed it.

    Judge ordered cost submissions may be done first by ex's lawyer, then me 10 days later, both limited to 2 pages.

    We did this. My cost submission included a rebuttal of theirs paragraph by paragraph.

    They then requested that they be allowed to reply to my cost submissions, which the judge allowed them to do.

    Their reply is so full of lies and misrepresentations, that it would be easy for me to rebut each point they make.

    My initial submission does cover most of it though. I am tempted to ask the judge if I may also submit another 2 pages to rebut their rebuttal.

    On one hand, every judge that I have seen (3) have all made orders that made perfect sense to me. If the motion judge does this for costs, I will be fine. Also I don't want to piss off the judge by being a pain.

    On the other hand, their rebuttal is so full of crap, I really want to respond.

    Advice?

    Also, I do not know how they contacted the judge to request they be allowed a second submission - all I got was an email from the Family Law Court assistant that the request had been granted. How would I request the judge allows me to also have a second submission? Just reply to the email I received from the assistant?

  • #2
    Typically the process is: Party A argument; Party B argument and rebuttle to Party A; Party A rebuttle.

    The process isn't supposed to include rebuttle after rebuttle after rebuttle.

    I haven't been in the position you are in, but seriously doubt that a judge will allow you to make yet another rebuttle. They would then have to allow your ex the same opportunity. For a costs award.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mess View Post
      Typically the process is: Party A argument; Party B argument and rebuttle to Party A; Party A rebuttle.

      The process isn't supposed to include rebuttle after rebuttle after rebuttle.

      I haven't been in the position you are in, but seriously doubt that a judge will allow you to make yet another rebuttle. They would then have to allow your ex the same opportunity. For a costs award.
      Thanks,

      Regarding costs, I was not aware that Party A rebuttal was common - I did not expect it.

      Looking over my 2 page argument which includes my rebuttal (I'm party b), it is straight forward and covers everything in Party A's submission as well as their rebuttal.

      So I should be fine - but would be nice to respond to their misleading BS.

      I suppose one of the main jobs of a judge is to detect BS, and they are exposed to it a lot and become good at detecting it.

      I won't request to be allowed a second submission. I've done all I can and I've done it well I believe - can't worry about it any more. Just have to wait.

      Comment


      • #4
        Good luck.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by billm View Post
          Judge ordered cost submissions may be done first by ex's lawyer, then me 10 days later, both limited to 2 pages.
          The real question is do you have offers to settle that are similar to (or better) than what was offered. That is what really matters in costs submissions. Good offers to settle demonstrate the reasonable party. Generally the unreasonable party will make up all sorts of nonsense in their costs submissions. Justices see it all the time.

          Originally posted by billm View Post
          Their reply is so full of lies and misrepresentations, that it would be easy for me to rebut each point they make.
          Are they relevant to the issues that were ordered? Many people who are possibly highly conflicted attempt to use the costs submissions to re-argue nonsense...

          Case on point:

          CanLII - 2012 ONSC 3212 (CanLII)

          [2] I have also reviewed the 45 pages of submissions and attachments filed by the respondent which largely deal with issues unrelated to the issues litigated at trial, namely, access and household items. One of the attachments has an email by the respondent to applicant’s counsel dated March 23, 2012 stating that his client’s fees for trial could exceed $30,000.00.

          Originally posted by billm View Post
          My initial submission does cover most of it though. I am tempted to ask the judge if I may also submit another 2 pages to rebut their rebuttal.
          Order favourable to you? If yes... Then don't bother... Costs is not about an argument it is about demonstrating if you were reasonable. Rebuttal to a rebuttal doesn't sound "reasonable" does it?

          Originally posted by billm View Post
          On one hand, every judge that I have seen (3) have all made orders that made perfect sense to me. If the motion judge does this for costs, I will be fine. Also I don't want to piss off the judge by being a pain.
          If the order was reasonable then the costs order will be. I suspect that you made a reasonable offer to settle prior to the motion. For which they are going to have to eat their own lunch on. Just something I suspect having read hundreds of your posts on this site.

          Originally posted by billm View Post
          On the other hand, their rebuttal is so full of crap, I really want to respond.

          Advice?
          Don't bother. The order is made and the costs is determined on what was ordered and who made reasonable offers to settle. See the above quote about throwing mud and trying to argue nonsense in a costs order...

          Originally posted by billm View Post
          Also, I do not know how they contacted the judge to request they be allowed a second submission - all I got was an email from the Family Law Court assistant that the request had been granted.
          You contact the assistant. The judge allowed it because really it isn't going to do much. Generally on costs the applicant submits and the respondent responds and it ends there. The justice could be letting them sink their own ship. (They do this quite often to parties that are highly conflicted.)

          Originally posted by billm View Post
          How would I request the judge allows me to also have a second submission? Just reply to the email I received from the assistant?
          I wouldn't bother. Costs are based on what was ordered in comparison to what both parties requested on the motion and prior offers to settle... They are grasping at straws probably.

          Good Luck!
          Tayken

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mess View Post
            Good luck.
            Hey... that is my line...

            Good Luck!
            Tayken

            Comment


            • #7
              I didn't follow the offer to settle rules, meaning I didn't send it in writing, it was an email.

              My offer to settle was in an email to her lawyer days before motion was served. That email states exact numbers for current support and that I wish to keep following our signed separation agreement. My numbers were $773/month (CS and SS) updating yearly in July based on previous year.

              I also offered to exchange their requested exhaustive (and duplicate for the most part - she is on her fourth lawyer) disclosure. They just wanted me to disclose (they ignored my request to exchange).

              Their offer was I pay $26K in arrears and $1600/month CS/SS with no automatic review/adjustment.

              The judge ordered $850/month CS/SS (she used a higher than mid SS) to be updated Jan 1 every year based on previous year income. The judge did not rule on arrears because it was too complex for a short motion the judge said.

              They completely did not want to avoid going to the motion and I obviously could not agree to their offers (I'm owed arrears if anything).
              Last edited by billm; 10-17-2013, 05:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey... that is my line...
                Different capitalization and punctuation - he gets away with it under artistic license.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Don't bother. The order is made and the costs is determined on what was ordered and who made reasonable offers to settle. See the above quote about throwing mud and trying to argue nonsense in a costs order...
                  Agreed. Also, while there may be some incompetent judges out there, most of the time they see right through the bs anyway. The judges I've been in front of have figured things out extremely quickly and efficiently and simply disregarded the nonsense.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The results are in.

                    I am ordered to pay $2000 for costs to my ex for the two motion dates. Her costs were $11000. I was self represented and I asked for costs of $6000.

                    I have mixed emotions about it. Mostly the judge said that as a result of the motion that my ex got the certainty and consistency in support that she sought and an order for disclosure.

                    The reality is that since separation I have paid support based on income updating yearly, and the judges order was to pay support based on income updating yearly - how does that improve the certainty and consistency?? Also as for disclosure, they said I have not done disclosure, however I have done more that almost anyone else I imagine, and wanted to discuss their most recent over the top request - which they refused to talk about or provide the same to me. Also, the judge ordered that we both disclose, not just me.

                    I'm not sure if the judge was trying to make it a little painful to me so as to send a message to both of us to stay out of court, or if she truly thought that I was part of the problem for being in court. Or possibly, the judge did not recognize my time as a cost, and because an order was made, that I have to pay for some of the court costs.

                    The other side said may lies and misleading statements regarding me and it was a huge challenge to defend myself.

                    Even though my ex spent $11k and got an order that was less favourable than my offers, I still am pissed that I didn't achieve total victory in that I have to pay $2k - that she was told by the judge that it was necessary to some extent to bring the motion forward.

                    What does my ex submitting $11k in costs and me as a self rep submitting $6k with the result that I pay $2k mean? What does it say about the success of the motion?

                    Maybe I'm looking at a gift horse in the mouth.

                    Comment

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