Does justice exist??

[mumma mudfoot]

What we do know now is that she is fighting an uphill battle because he got her to retaliate and he actually called the cops.

Clincher is I didn't actually retaliate. I never touched him. He made a spurious charge. Because we are still technically married, although have lived apart for a year and a half, it was considered "domestic assault". The police have new protocol with domestic to take the accuser's word and let the Judge figure it out. even without any witness statement or prior anything. The women's centre has told me that since their change in tactics Partner Abuse programs are being filled with abused women who have been charged by their abusers and take the plea w/ program because they cannot afford to fight for the truth. Brutal.

[rwm1273]

MM I think you are reading too much into AnarX's statement. I think the big problem is there has been your accusation that your ex asaulted you with your children present in the bed.

Most of us here have the belief that a sexual assault is a violent act. However your statement leaves some questions open as to how violent it was if the children were not harmed, as you also claimed was the reason why the mediator had no issues with the assault.

Now some people have made a mountain of a mole hill out of this question of assault, and it has strayed to wonder if you were withholding sex from him, and if so was it a form of abuse too.

Maybe women are put into an unfortunate position more often when it comes to sex when they do not want it, but it also happens for men. I do think that withholding sex as a form of punishment is abuse in a marriage, as much as it is abuse to force your partner to have sex when they do not want it, but here is where it gets tricky. If your husband wants sex and you don't really feel like it, but he does manage to "get it in" and do his thing, is it the same as rape? Did you beat him and try to scratch his eyes out? Did you kick and scream? Did you fight for your life? Or did you just lie there? Did he use a gun or a knife, and therefore you did not fight back? What really happened?

I think that is where many on here have lost track of the story, and some including myself have taken heat for our comments and questions.

A claim of rape is claiming that it was a violent attack. It is something that you go to the police and doctor about. Anything less in the marriage bed is sex without interest, and should not be something that your husband should be dragged of to jail for, unless he threatened you with violence.

Without more information, we all are just speculating.

Women are are not sex objects there for men's pleasure. I don't think anyone ever said that. But why do you think it is possible to get an annulment for a marriage if it was not consumated. Sex is important in a marriage, and withholding sex can be considered abuse, as much as forcing sex is.(we are not talking about violent force here)

You questioned what was the price of his sexual gratification. This may sound harsh, but how much did you value your marriage? You mentioned that he knew your sexual preference. You claim that things were good before the marriage, but became bad after. Was this before or after you withheld sex?

[mumma mudfoot]

-- because the Opening Poster left salient details out of her story.

I will just wait until MudFoot tells us what really happened.

Until she enhances her story, I think it is highly presumptuous to jump all over her ex-husband. If her accusation is baseless, I say more power to her ex-man. There is nothing in her story or any of her posts which would rule out the above possibility.

Okay the final "assault", if I can call it that, which led me to leave my ex was generally as follows...
We had always co slept with our children. I never agreed to sex in the bed with them sleeping. (there are other places). They were asleep, I hope, through the whole thing. But it made me realize that they could witness what he was doing one day. This was not a lone incident. I said: no; I don't want to; the kids are right here; no; no; no; leave me alone; I want to sleep; I am not in the mood; many forms of no thank you. He would not stop touching me. He forced me to touch him; I pulled away. I was crying. I tried to get out of the bed. Ended up under him. He forced himself on me. I cried, tried not to wake my children. He then threatened that if I made it an issue he and his family would make sure I would lose my children. One year later I made a comment to him referring to his abuses and two weeks later he claimed I slapped him across the face and I was taken from my home in handcuffs.
abuse??
justice??
sorry if this was too many details but there seemed to be a lot of questions.

[mumma mudfoot]

If you are scared, and you sound like you are, then you have a right to ask for a restraining order or peace bond. Unfortunately because of the complexity of your situation, you may have a hard time with explaining the problems to a judge in regular morning chambers, and may need to ask for special chambers so you have an opportunity to have time to discuss the issues in more detail.

In the disclosure from the crown, did you get the police notes? That will be telling as to why the cop charged you.

There were the police notes. They only reiterated his claim. They took my partner's statement AFTER charging me, eventhough she saw the argument, and never saw any slap or wrist grab. They never wrote that she told them that on the phone when they first called to tell me they were coming to arrest me. They told her on the phone they were not basing their allegations solely on his claim but also his witness. They have no statement from his witness, never did.

[rwm1273]

You got yourself a sorry situation. Like I told you earlier, you will get off the charges, and it will be an unfortunate memory.

As for the assault, I think you will have a hard time getting a judge to agree that it was a rape, or a sexual assault. The part of the situation I see being damming for him is the threats of using his family to help him take the kids from you.

I think that your threat of claiming abuse was his reasoning for your charge.

[blinkandimgone]

Regardless of WHY she chose not to have sex with him, you CANNOT use ANY of it as a reason to justify or condone rape or sexual assault of any kind. It doesn't have to be a violent act where people suffered injuries to be considered sexual assault - if it was unwanted sexual contact then it's sexual assault regardless of HIS reasons for doing so.

You can't go in a front of a judge and say 'I took what I wanted because she was withholding sex - that's ok, right?' or 'she was abusive to me everyday so it's ok'. It's NOT ok, it's NEVER ok. If you're not getting any and it's a problem for you then get out of your marriage and find a willing and interested partner. Please please please stop trying to justify and rationalize this kind of behaviour!!

[dadtotheend]

I also have been finding out that there are many, many women who feel they should lie back and take it, even if they don't want to.

That's not fun for either of us. A little communication and romance is the play there.

[rwm1273]

Regardless of WHY she chose not to have sex with him, you CANNOT use ANY of it as a reason to justify or condone rape or sexual assault of any kind. It doesn't have to be a violent act where people suffered injuries to be considered sexual assault - if it was unwanted sexual contact then it's sexual assault regardless of HIS reasons for doing so.

You can't go in a front of a judge and say 'I took what I wanted because she was withholding sex - that's ok, right?' or 'she was abusive to me everyday so it's ok'. It's NOT ok, it's NEVER ok. If you're not getting any and it's a problem for you then get out of your marriage and find a willing and interested partner. Please please please stop trying to justify and rationalize this kind of behaviour!!

I don't think anyone here is saying if what MM's ex did was right, as it clearly was not. What is at question is the label of sexual assault, and if it can be convicted. Our judges vary greatly in their interpretations of the issue, and what one judge may convict on, another would not. You need to understand the difference, and realize that what I am saying is from a legal view, not a moral view. I am not condoning the behavior.

Here are some statements that show some judicial thinking on the subject:

Statements of Justice Wolder J.:

I am of the view that w[h]ere a viable marital relationship exists, then it is not enough for the Crown to simply prove that the sexual conduct took place without the stated consent of the other party in order to secure a conviction for sexual assault by one marital partner against the other.47 [Emphasis added.]

It is my view that, within the confines of a viable marriage, the Crown must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the conduct of the accused was subjectively outside the norms of tolerated sexual behaviour in that particular couple's sexual relationship within their marriage. In other words, it is my view that the Crown must establish not that the complainant said "no" on that particular occasion, but that in the context of the parties’ entire marital relationship, and in the context of that particular situation, her saying "no" differed from the way they historically interacted for a sexual purpose and that the accused, thereby, should have known from such different behaviour that her "no" or her rejection of the accused's advances in fact was different from the way the parties interacted sexually in the past.49 [Emphasis added.]

In analyzing these legal arguments, Thomas J. appeared to be indignant in his attitude towards the Crown’s claims, which he found to be “wrong in law.” In his words,
In essence, the position of the Crown is that a criminal assault occurs whenever there is physical sexual touching of one partner by another in an ongoing marital relationship without obtaining express consent in advance to the touching.68
Not only is this legally wrong, according to Thomas J., but to add insult to injury, it “is erroneous in principle and also offends ordinary common sense.”69

SSRN-Sexual Assault in Spousal Relationships, 'Continuous Consent', and the Law, Honest but Mistaken Judicial Beliefs by Melanie Randall

[dadtotheend]

Y'all are getting all wrapped up in a discussion where everybody has a different picture in their head of what's going on in that bedroom, what the scene looks like, what kind of personalities are involved, etc.

When everyone is perceiving this in a totally different manner, is it any wonder that this conversation is doomed?

[rwm1273]

Absolutely correct dtte. None of us were there.

[billiechic]

Or was it your initial thinking? Maybe jumping to conclusions?

EXCUSE ME??? I was the one who asked the question..so I couldn't be jumping to conclusions!

Why is it that when I admit there was a problem with the way I worded something that you jump on me? I was basically apologizing to Hammerdad for the misunderstanding...so who are you to butt in when there obviously was nothing to butt in about!

[rwm1273]

Maybe if you did not jump to conclusions you would not need to apologize.

[representingself]

MM I think you are reading too much into AnarX's statement. I think the big problem is there has been your accusation that your ex asaulted you with your children present in the bed.

Most of us here have the belief that a sexual assault is a violent act. However your statement leaves some questions open as to how violent it was if the children were not harmed, as you also claimed was the reason why the mediator had no issues with the assault.

Now some people have made a mountain of a mole hill out of this question of assault, and it has strayed to wonder if you were withholding sex from him, and if so was it a form of abuse too.

Maybe women are put into an unfortunate position more often when it comes to sex when they do not want it, but it also happens for men. I do think that withholding sex as a form of punishment is abuse in a marriage, as much as it is abuse to force your partner to have sex when they do not want it, but here is where it gets tricky. If your husband wants sex and you don't really feel like it, but he does manage to "get it in" and do his thing, is it the same as rape? Did you beat him and try to scratch his eyes out? Did you kick and scream? Did you fight for your life? Or did you just lie there? Did he use a gun or a knife, and therefore you did not fight back? What really happened?

I think that is where many on here have lost track of the story, and some including myself have taken heat for our comments and questions.

A claim of rape is claiming that it was a violent attack. It is something that you go to the police and doctor about. Anything less in the marriage bed is sex without interest, and should not be something that your husband should be dragged of to jail for, unless he threatened you with violence.

Without more information, we all are just speculating.

Women are are not sex objects there for men's pleasure. I don't think anyone ever said that. But why do you think it is possible to get an annulment for a marriage if it was not consumated. Sex is important in a marriage, and withholding sex can be considered abuse, as much as forcing sex is.(we are not talking about violent force here)

You questioned what was the price of his sexual gratification. This may sound harsh, but how much did you value your marriage? You mentioned that he knew your sexual preference. You claim that things were good before the marriage, but became bad after. Was this before or after you withheld sex?

Dude... you have a seriously ignorant perception of what constitutes sexual assualt...

I personally don't care to comment on this particular womans experience, as I was definitely NOT in her bedroom during the alleged assualt, and I know nothing about her specific sexual preferences.

I refuse to waste my time arguing absurd hypothetical situations, or whether or not witholding sex is a form of abuse or any implications that sexual assualt is justifiable if a spouse refuses sex.

You may be of the opinion that sexual assualt is a violent event, wherein the victim must be screaming and fighting, but the fact is that ANY UNWANTED SEXUAL TOUCHING is assualt.

I think anyone with half a brain would realize that giving in having sex with a spouse when you don't really want to... is NOT sexual assualt.

Being married does NOT forfeit ones rights over thier own bodies, nor does it entitle a spouse to sexual gratification on demand.

A person who abuses his spouse sexually, most likey abuses their spouse physically, mentally, emotionally, (logic tells me you can't have one without the others). The abuser will use anything from threats, to coersion to actual physical restraints to force their partner into sexual acts..... and just as a spouse who is beaten may hide their bruises, not fight back or report it to police, a sexually abused spouse may hide the abuse as well... or be too afraid or brainwashed to come forward.

Just because you don't gouge their eyes out, doesn't mean you consented to the sexual act.

Also... to the OP.....I have heard of (and can understand) situations where a couple shares their bedroom with an infant, like when the crib is in the parents bedroom, and the couple may make love quietly in the same room....

But to actually have sex in the same BED as your children is WRONG!

I have a school aged child who often sleeps in between "Mommy and Daddy"..... but I have NEVER had SEX in the same bed as my child, and I am horrified at the idea of responsible, mentally-stable adults engaging in sexual acts with their child IN the bed. Asleep or not...

Sick!!

[billiechic]

Maybe if you did not jump to conclusions you would not need to apologize.

If I jumped to conclusions...so did everyone else on here.

Fortunately for me I beleive I am somewhat respected on here and Hammerdad did not jump down my throat because we disagreed. I didnt understand his position, he clarified, and I apologized for my unclear posting. I doubt there are any hard feelings between him and I. If there are, I`m sorry, and I expect that we can take care of them like adults.

You however are new and I am unsure about you as your postings have drawn quite a bit of flack since you started. If you are trying to come across as a smart a**...good job!

[dadtotheend]

He's probably not as good looking as you either billie