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Dad has paid for everything for 10 years...now she wants to take him to the cleaners

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  • Dad has paid for everything for 10 years...now she wants to take him to the cleaners

    My dad has been in a relationship with a woman for 20 years. They have been living together for about 10. For the last several years they have been "roommates" only. She has a separate bedroom and bathroom.

    She sold her house and bought a condo with my dad about 8 years ago. When they purchased their condo, the deed said they are "tenants in common" with my dad owning 5/8 and her 3/8. Her 3/8 is mortgaged and she has been paying it all along. The mortgage is in both names.

    Their agreement was that they were to split all living costs 50/50. They had a joint account that covered the bills and they both contributed to it. After about 3 months, she closed the account. She has not contributed anything other than groceries in 8 years. My dad has been paying for everything, including furniture, renovations, cars, insurance, etc.

    About 5 years ago, she purchased a condo in Florida in her name. She and my dad have been using it, and he paid for all renovations (e.g., carpet, paint, furniture, etc.) He found out that recently she somehow got the condo put into her daughter's name.

    My dad owns a 37 foot cabin cruiser. It is in his name, but she had a small financial interest in the boat they sold to purchase the current boat.

    About 5 years ago she had a car accident that left her in hospital for several weeks. My dad (at his expense) hired a lawyer and sued the other driver, and she received a payout of almost $300,000. She used the money to help her daughter pay her mortgage and debts.

    The accident rendered her unable to work until about 2 years ago. She has been working full time and for the last year has been contributing a small portion of the monthly condo expenses. In light of the breakup, about 3 months ago she stopped contributing claiming to "have no money."

    My dad is 70 and still works. On paper I suspect she probably makes more money (she is several years younger). She is after everything. She is also planning to seek spousal support. She has taken advantage of him for a long time and plans to do so in the breakup.

    She has had a lot of money come to her in the past...proceeds of the house, insurance settlement, inheritance. I do know she lost a lot of money with a rogue financial planner, but she has never contributed anything significant financially to the relationship with my dad.

    What is she entitled to? She's after 1/2 the condo, 1/2 the boat, spousal support. My dad already gave her a car and doesn't expect it back. She doesn't intend to split the Florida condo.

    What about my dad? Is he 1/2 responsible for her mortgage? Does he have to give her 1/2 the boat? Can he claim 1/2 the Florida condo?

    It's going to get very nasty.

  • #2
    For an Innocent Bystander, you write well. Welcome.

    Comment


    • #3
      My brother and I have seen this coming for years...unfortunately for him his generosity and naivety have brought him to this point. He hasn't been the healthiest man either and we would love to see him retire and live comfortably.

      Comment


      • #4
        You've laid everythng out logically and clearly and this should be the basis of what you bring to a lawyer or to court if necessary.

        Items like your dad's home or the boat should be valued and split according to her contribution. Do it fairly. The condo go 5/8 3/8 as you suggest. For the boat, calculate her contribution, and either reimburse her or call it a percentage and offer her the percent of current value.

        The condo in Florida, it is in her name, she is paying the mortgage etc. Calculate how much your dad paid for reno and write that up in a paragraph and seek that money as part of equalization. Then let the condo go, it is hers. In fact, your dad might consider letting go of the money he put into renovation (call it his "rent" for the time he spent living there) but leave that as a last minute concession, not your opening offer.

        Her car accident and insurance settlement is hers; your dad has no claim on the money and it would maybe be possible to argue his contribution in legal fees but hardly worth it. If this does go to court, the contribution should be brought up, but in general he has no claim on her insurance settlement and he should just let it go.

        She only would qualify for spousal support if she earned significantly less than he. "On paper" she earns more; it's not clear what this means, you have to be clear and accurate or you will get a nasty surprise. Assuming your dad is able to use significant write offs to lower his net income for taxes, these might be taken into account or might not, you have to be clearer. In general she gets spousal support if her income is less than 45% of his. That doesn't appear to be the case. However your dad should be able to claim most or all of his deductions, and meanwhile his ex will want to calculate from his gross income so it is difficult to say from here what the result is.

        Your dad gave her a car and doesn't expect it back. Good, he won't get it back and shouldn't.

        In a common law situation there is no formal equalization the way there is in a marriage/divorce, but your dad and his ex shared investments and they do have some claim to some value of each property. They can bankrupt themselves going to court over this. They need to make lists, have valuations done, go over who contributed what and take it all to a mediator. Your dad needs to then draw a line in the sand and say no to anything she wants that she doesn't own.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re the boat and the Florida condo:

          I would tell your dad to offer her a wash of these investments. He won't request his portion of the reno's to the Florida condo if she relinquishes her request for any portion of the boat.

          If your dad can prove that he alone paid for all the mortgage, he may get somewhere with the judge, but at what cost. If it costs him nearly in legal fees as it would us to pay her out of the portion, he would be better served just washing his hands of her and paying her the money.

          As for spousal support, see what Mess said. Same goes for her requests for anything that isn't in her name or that she owns.

          Comment


          • #6
            All great advice Mess and HammerDad. Thank you.

            The house deed which has them "tenants in common" with 5/8 and 3/8 interest...is that document legally binding or can she go after more? The 3/8 that she mortgaged...upon selling the condo will he be saddled with 1/2 her mortgage?

            Also, they have a joint line of credit that carries a balance. Do they split this debt?

            Comment


            • #7
              Unfortunately, she can ask for anything. Whether she is sucessful depends on your fathers arguments against her claims, and the ability of the Lawyer he retains...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mess View Post
                ...In general she gets spousal support if her income is less than 45% of his. ...
                Question.

                Is this true, I thought SSAG was to split the COMBINED ndi (ie combine the incomes of the two people into one pot), and then distribute about 45/55 with 55% going to the greater income earner.

                This is not what Mess is saying here, and its a BIG difference. I've been reading some posts that say this (what Mess has said), but others that seem to imply what I have said here.

                Ignoring NDI and just talking numbers here is an example

                Spouse 1 makes 100k
                Spouse 2 makes 50k

                Mess way - no SS since 50k > 45% of 100k

                What I thought - combined income is 150K, 55% = 82.5k,
                so SS is (100K - 82.5k) = 17.5K per year (~$1500/month)

                Anyone care to clarify?

                Comment


                • #9
                  bill, I think your method would be the clearer way, but my lawyer's calculations, and the way I read the Spousal Support guidelines (which aren't law but are used commonly) say 45% of the payor's gross, or NDI if child support is paid.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sounds like much of this could come down to negotiations, regardless of entitlement. Unfortunately I believe there will be no give and take on her part. That's just the kind of person she is. So they may well end up in court.

                    I'd like to re-ask the question I asked earlier...if they rely on the courts to settle the division of assets, will my dad be liable for a portion of her mortgage, even though she has always paid it? (He funded his 5/8 with the proceeds of his previous condo, while she mortgaged the full amount of her 3/8).

                    Also are they jointly responsible for the joint line of credit? A few months ago, without my dad's prior knowledge, she wrote a sizable cheque against the line of credit.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mess View Post
                      bill, I think your method would be the clearer way, but my lawyer's calculations, and the way I read the Spousal Support guidelines (which aren't law but are used commonly) say 45% of the payor's gross, or NDI if child support is paid.
                      Well I think your read is not correct. For example if two people were together for a long long time, and have non ending support, meaning that there is no separating of the financial status of the two, then they should share equally in their combined incomes (though unlike SSAG, I believe in this case the sharing should fade to nothing over time). SSAG allows for equal split of incomes (50/50), and therefore the threshold would be any difference in income, not one as big as 45%.

                      FYI, I believe that compensatory spousal support is the only way to go, if it can be determined, and SSAG should only be used in the case where it can't be determined. Not a big fan of tying two people together financially after marriage. But like I said also is that SSAG keeps support the same for the length of it, but that does not make sense to me - the income sharing should be less over time. But I've said all this before!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by billm View Post
                        Well I think your read is not correct. ... SSAG allows for equal split of incomes (50/50), and therefore the threshold would be any difference in income, not one as big as 45%.
                        I had the same thought. I've seen this fact repeated by different posters recently, and I wonder if the wrong info is just being passed from one forum member to enother without checking the source.

                        I recently went through the SSAG website, and it was pretty clear that SS was to bring the lower income ex to the range of 40-50% OF THE COMBINED TOTAL NDI (not of the higher earner's NDI).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Spousal Support Guidelines With and Without Child Support

                          Under the basic without child support formula:
                          • The amount of spousal support is 1.5 to 2 percent of the difference between the spouses’ gross incomes for each year of marriage, to a maximum range of 37.5 to 50 per cent of the gross income difference for marriages of 25 years or more (The upper end of this maximum range is capped at the amount that would result in equalization of the spouses’ net incomes — the net income cap.)
                          • Duration is .5 to 1 year of support for each year of marriage, with duration becoming indefinite (duration not specified) after 20 years or, if the marriage has lasted 5 years or longer, when the years of marriage and age of the support recipient (at separation) added together total 65 or more (the <Q>"rule of 65"</Q>).
                          This formula didn't apply to me, we had CS in place so I was less familiar. This formula is based on a percentage of the the difference between gross incomes. It has nothing to do with NDI and nothing to do with the combined incomes.

                          Example, John earns $100,000, Mary earns $20,000, the difference is $80,000. They were married 10 years so support would be 15-20% of $80k, for a period of 5-10 years.
                          Under the basic with child support formula:
                          • Spousal support is an amount that will leave the recipient spouse with between 40 and 46 percent of the spouses’ net incomes after child support has been taken out. (We refer to the spouses’ net income after child support has been taken out as Individual Net Disposable Income or INDI).
                          • The approach to duration under this formula is more complex and flexible than under the without child support formula; orders are initially indefinite in form (duration not specified) but the formula also establishes durational ranges which are intended to structure the process of review and variation and which limit the cumulative duration of awards under this formula. These durational limits rely upon both length of marriage and the ages of the children.
                          Reading this and the more detailed version in Chapter 8, I have to agree with you bill and Dinky, it is 40-46% of combined incomes, after tax, after benefits and after CS is removed. I do remember my lawyer's words clearly when we discussed it, but I think she was giving my a grossly simplified expanation when she entering the numbers into Divorcemate and I went away thinking the wrong thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Innocent Bystander View Post
                            I'd like to re-ask the question I asked earlier...if they rely on the courts to settle the division of assets, will my dad be liable for a portion of her mortgage, even though she has always paid it? (He funded his 5/8 with the proceeds of his previous condo, while she mortgaged the full amount of her 3/8).

                            Also are they jointly responsible for the joint line of credit? A few months ago, without my dad's prior knowledge, she wrote a sizable cheque against the line of credit.
                            They are jointly responsible for anything in joint names, your dad needs to deal with any joint accounts immediately. If it goes as far as court he can bring up the issue of her cleaning out the credit account just before separation and try to claim something but that is up to the judge. A mediator would probably side with your dad. There is no guarentee.

                            There is no clear answer to your question about the condo. Say the condo is worth $400k. (for easy math). The split of ownership should be $250k to your dad, $150k to his ex, but she is still liable for her own mortgage. That is how I would argue it, you can bet she will argue it differently.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As well, I would suggest an application for financial information. A spouse that hides $$ or assets, or transfers them without the co-spouse's knowledge can often have that assessed against them when it comes to the financial side of a break up or divorce. I would be asking the bank for the last 3 years of statements for dad's account, to show the bills he has been paying, entered into evidence when it gets to that point...banks usually take up to 6 months to provide.

                              Comment

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