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  • Spousal Support - Length of time help

    Hi all,

    looking for some more advice re: Spousal Support in Ontario.

    So far I have spent $12,000.00 in legal fees and we are still not fully settled yet.

    Quick catch-up

    Common-law 6 years with 3 beautiful kids who live with her.

    Seperated October 2009

    Joint home has been sold and equity from home finally has been released (June 2012) and a good amount of debt has been paid out. Agreement signed and witnessed in front of both lawyers and judge signed off.

    We have been able to keep this between us & the lawyer's and out of court.

    Where we are now:

    Well, last time this was all to be finalized she dropped the bombshell of wanting to move my kids out of city over 1 hour away. Of course I could not committ to this and we told the lawyers we would need to meet again.

    She is only working as daycare and has now moved into another rental home (her best friend own this property) with our kids.

    Have agreed to joint custody with her as the custodian parent

    I am paying my time tabled child support amount each and every month

    Here is my question:

    She e-mailed me the other day after a telephone call with my kids. When I call I am always made to talk on speaker phone even when I request to take it off. My GF bought me (b-day) vacation down south which I told my kids about when I see them in person. My oldest asked me on the phone where I was and I said 'I will tell you again when I have you this week end'. It is my feeling that my ex does not need to know what I do or go as I do not request that information from her.

    I also got my first cell-phone because texting makes it easier for me to say I am calling the kids etc instead of machine message after message. It cost me $12 more per month than my home phone.

    My ex took it personal that I would not tell my son where I went (she yelled Woowwwwwwwwwww on the line). I then get an e-mail from her saying that her lawyer will be in touch and that all finances will be discussed again and support etc.

    I got served documents in June of 2011, filing to the court, her asking for everything etc. I just feel this is sort of a low blow here. My youngest just started JK this year and the other two are f/t in school. I just do not think she wants to go back to work and I have paid on time every single month + took an additional $6250 in credit debt + gave her all the furniture from the house ($4750) and through e-mail agreed that this would also be a spousal settlement. Although she never signed that amended agreement from my lawyer and like I said I am $12,000.00 in and want to keep costs at a minimum here.

    So how long can she keep going back and looking to get more $$ out of me. I am trying hard to get out of debt asap but it seems kinda pointless if only then she can say 'oh you can now afford to pay me more' etc.

    My lawyer said that even 6 years of commonlaw with 3 kids she could theoretically get spousal for 17 years?????????????? Please help.

  • #2
    I have a similar concern, but am on the receiving end of the support. It's my understanding that spousal support can be ordered up until the youngest child of the relationship turns 18. Personally, I think that should only happen rarely.

    I don't want spousal support from my stbx for any longer than I'm going to need it. But we have a young daughter (3 years old) and we don't get full-day kindergarten where we live until September 2014. So for me to get a full-time job, I'd have to put our daughter in day care, which neither I nor my stbx can afford, and I'd have to find a job that would work around day care hours, since my stbx works a varied schedule, including days, evenings, and weekends. Her schedule is never the same from week to week, and neither are my parents' schedules. So there wouldn't be anyone I could rely on to pick our daughter up from daycare each day if I had to work. The only other option would be to hire a babysitter, at even further expense, to get my daughter from daycare. By the time all this daycare and babysitting is paid for, I'll be working for pennies, and our daughter will be spending at least 3/4 of her time with strangers.

    My stbx would still be paying the same amount of child support, and her portion of the daycare costs would be more than she pays me in spousal support. I might end up with an extra $200 a month if I'm lucky, and a couple hundred dollars hardly seems worth our daughter's world being turned upside down any more than it is already gonna be with my stbx leaving soon.

    My concern, however, is that my stbx believes that if she took this to court, a judge may order me to get a job now, forcing our daughter into daycare. I can't really see this happening, since I've been home with our daughter for the majority of her life (2 1/2 years now) and I can't imagine how a judge would think it's in her best interests to be forced into daycare at a time when her family is breaking apart, and she's already going to be confused and upset and seeing one parent less than usual. It would just seem cruel to also expect her to have to adjust at the same time to seeing me for a couple hours a day, when she's used to seeing me at least 10 hours a day. But from my previous experiences in court with the mother of my first child, sometimes judges make poor decisions, whether it's cuz they're having a bad day or whatever, I've seen it happen more than once, and I'm worried it may happen in this case, as well, if my stbx decides to fight rather than compromise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Your lawyer is on crack. At MOST she's get spousal for 6 years, although with the short duration of the relationship, you are more likely looking at 3 TOPS, and that assumes she even qualifies. She'd have a hell of a time arguing entitlement.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NBDad View Post
        Your lawyer is on crack. At MOST she's get spousal for 6 years, although with the short duration of the relationship, you are more likely looking at 3 TOPS, and that assumes she even qualifies. She'd have a hell of a time arguing entitlement.
        I hate my lawyer to be honest. I wish I could leave but feel I am too vested now and would end up spending more $$ to get another lawyer into the loop. Plus I really don't know if I can leave without finalization halfway through?

        She told me with 3 kids and her not currently working (self employeed daycare so under $8k NOA) I could be on the hook for 17 years????? I honestly feel like she doesn't fight for me. Just here is what it is blah blah blah.

        I mean 3 years later, then you can say, Oh, now I can't get by without spousal etc.

        Comment


        • #5
          At MOST she's get spousal for 6 years, although with the short duration of the relationship, you are more likely looking at 3 TOPS, and that assumes she even qualifies. She'd have a hell of a time arguing entitlement.
          Guidelines would indicate 3-6 years of spousal support for a relationship of six years. Depending upon the age of the children and whether there are any special needs, longer spousal support could be ordered.

          If your lawyer seems like she will roll over and set you up to spend spousal support for the next 17 years, however, you may wish to look for another lawyer. At the least, get independent legal advice as a second opinion.

          Your lawyer performs as you instruct. If they are not aiding your negotiations then it is not a worthwhile investment.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by OrleansLawyer View Post
            Guidelines would indicate 3-6 years of spousal support for a relationship of six years. Depending upon the age of the children and whether there are any special needs, longer spousal support could be ordered.

            If your lawyer seems like she will roll over and set you up to spend spousal support for the next 17 years, however, you may wish to look for another lawyer. At the least, get independent legal advice as a second opinion.

            Your lawyer performs as you instruct. If they are not aiding your negotiations then it is not a worthwhile investment.
            Thanks for the response. Kids are 4,6 & 7.

            Do you or anyone else know how to get another lawyer and terminate the one you have?

            With tax I am paying $380/hr and there have been lots of mistakes with the legal assistant that continue to add $$ to me.

            What I worry is that this is the lawyer who I used when I responded to being served back in June of 2011. So isn't my lawyers name on everything and wouldn't I then need to pay another lawyer to have the same documents completed and bring him/her up to speed with everything?

            I worry that my lawyer will say that there will be a charge (if you will) to have her name removed from the documents filed with the courts etc. There is another lawyer I have in mind but I do not want to start paying for 2 of them.

            Are there charges when you leave your lawyer? Do I need to sign anything? And what happens with current signed agreements with that said lawyer?

            Comment


            • #7
              how to get another lawyer and terminate the one you have?
              Lawyer Referral Service is a great way to start. Otherwise go by reputation.

              To fire your lawyer, inform them that you will be terminating the retainer. Instruct them to provide a final bill. Request your file. Fill out, serve and file a Form 4: Notice of Change in Representation.

              With tax I am paying $380/hr and there have been lots of mistakes with the legal assistant that continue to add $$ to me.
              You may wish to mention that when discussing your final invoice. Keep records.

              So isn't my lawyers name on everything and wouldn't I then need to pay another lawyer to have the same documents completed and bring him/her up to speed with everything?
              Another lawyer will need to read up on your file. They should not need to redo work completed unless it was done badly.

              I worry that my lawyer will say that there will be a charge (if you will) to have her name removed from the documents filed with the courts etc.
              What does your retainer agreement say? Usually, if you force the lawyer to bring a motion to be removed then they can charge you for the time to do so.

              Comment


              • #8
                Something I have had to deal with was arguing our final invoice. We were charged for things that we shouldn't have because of mistakes our lawyer admitted to. Of course we had to fight to have those fees removed. We ended up negotiating it prior to the review date. We settled because we would have had to travel to Ontario from NB, not very cost effective. We found out that you can submit a request to review those fees through the court house, you can can find a lot of information from The Law Society of Upper Canada about filing a complaint against your lawyer, if it is justified. I found them helpful to talk to. If you are not in Ontario i'm sure there is something similar in your area...

                The Law Society of Upper Canada

                It can be hard to make the switch to a new lawyer, a lot of lawyers are cautious to take you on when you just let one go, if you explain the reasons why and it is logical the right lawyer will take you on. Make sure you have a copy of your file to bring with you for the new lawyer to review. I would do it before it it to late if your lawyer is working out.

                Good luck!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by crob29 View Post
                  My concern, however, is that my stbx believes that if she took this to court, a judge may order me to get a job now, forcing our daughter into daycare. I can't really see this happening, since I've been home with our daughter for the majority of her life (2 1/2 years now) and I can't imagine how a judge would think it's in her best interests to be forced into daycare at a time when her family is breaking apart, and she's already going to be confused and upset and seeing one parent less than usual. It would just seem cruel to also expect her to have to adjust at the same time to seeing me for a couple hours a day, when she's used to seeing me at least 10 hours a day. But from my previous experiences in court with the mother of my first child, sometimes judges make poor decisions, whether it's cuz they're having a bad day or whatever, I've seen it happen more than once, and I'm worried it may happen in this case, as well, if my stbx decides to fight rather than compromise.
                  You're forgetting an important point here: the longer you remain out of the workforce, the harder it will be for you to obtain renumerative employment, and it will take you longer to become self sufficient. When you look at the long term financial picture, paying more for daycare now, while you work, may payoff in the long run.

                  Originally posted by MAC-JMJ View Post
                  My lawyer said that even 6 years of commonlaw with 3 kids she could theoretically get spousal for 17 years?????????????? Please help.
                  This does seem excessive. If you lookup online SS calculators, the range will likely be 3-6 years. Do you believe she's even entitled?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                    You're forgetting an important point here: the longer you remain out of the workforce, the harder it will be for you to obtain renumerative employment, and it will take you longer to become self sufficient. When you look at the long term financial picture, paying more for daycare now, while you work, may payoff in the long run.



                    This does seem excessive. If you lookup online SS calculators, the range will likely be 3-6 years. Do you believe she's even entitled?
                    Well she is 37, so it is not like she will not be able to gain employment because of age here and had formal employment 1 year ago. I just od not think she wants to now and see child support + SS as her means to do just that.

                    In all honesty, whatever I thought or think means nothing in the court of law, right? My lawyer told me with 3 kids, ahes 7,6,4 and her not working that the calculator stated up to 17 years with an average of $350 per month as the mid amount.

                    It just pisses me off because she always was a hard worker and this totally allows her to just do daycare at home and claim next to nothing to keep things going. I am sure it is just to spite me but after 3 years, come on now. All this does is limit my ability to provide for my kids outside of a biweekly transfer which they don't understand anyway.

                    I have no problems paying what I owe for my kids but at 37, good health and prior financial skills/customer service skills you aren't limited to a small section in the workforce. And can do much more than daycare.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi MAC-JMJ

                      I am in the exact same boat. My ex runs a home daycare and during mediation she was claiming after all her deductions a salary of about $6000 which meant full spousal support...bla, bla, bla.

                      During mediation, I had several of her supposed deductions thrown back into her salary such as Vehicle expenses such as gas, insurance, and interest on the car loan as it was a 4 seater car and she had 5 kids plus herself. How is she suppose to use the vehilce for 2 outings a week?

                      The only costs I agreed to were the direct costs from the daycare. Such as the cost to advertise for spaces, the food (only food used for daycare), the business insurance (unlicenced daycare) and a set amount for toys/books.

                      I reminded her that I was not going to accept the horse shit deductions she submitted to CRA ($9400 for food, $4300 for toys/books, $2700 for outings, all vehicle expenss and more) and that if she insisted on keeping those deductions that I would have an independant audit done and that I too would get to remove those same bogus amounts from my year end salary.

                      So once it was all said and done, her salary went from $6000.00 to the proper $20k something which changed the SS calcultor amounts to a more reasonable amount.

                      Good luck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's arguable that she may be entitled to non-compensatory support until the youngest enters full time school at age 6. So, for two years she can stay at home and the child wouldn't be in daycare.

                        Anything more than this is pushing it.

                        Comment

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