Hi All. Help Please!

[arabian]

Maybe see if you can find one that specializes in helping the working spouse to retain as much of their assets as possible.

By the way, don't trust lawyers. When you do your financial statement, they know how much money you have...and far too many of them are trying to get the biggest payout possible.

Your fiance's ex might not be the only one with a hand in his pocket.

This is a valid point - one has to keep an eye to the lawyer's bill and insist on a detailed monthly statement. No statement no retainer advance.

I can't stress how important it is at the early stage to exchange budgets. They are essential in negotiating the interim order for SS. The interim order sets the stage for SS so this is very, very important. Yes a savvy, confident lawyer can indeed 'negotiate' the interim order with opposing counsel and have it dealt with on consent. If she is cut off it will motivate her and her counsel to start negotiating and the lawyer must demand her budget. It will, of course, be outrageous but that is good for you down the road. These documents do indeed come back to haunt one at a later date and judges do consider these quite seriously.

Your man has to be prepared to move when early negotiations commence or she will simply go to court and show the judge what she has been receiving to date. You don't want it to get to that point - ideally you want to negotiate the interim SS out-of-court/on consent.

[arabian]

Here is a case which I think anyone who is going through divorce with children should study. It is felt that this case will set new standards for disclosure of self-employed individuals (in this situation the father is a lawyer).

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc...2017abca4.html

[Faye]

Faye, I'm not trying to be harsh...so forgive me...but yes, you're very naive.

He's not going to get nice points for handing over his money...more likely to happen is the complete opposite. He could get totally screwed if he doesn't actually start the process of doing what you do in divorce...and SPLIT UP. She's no longer his wife and shouldn't be enjoying living off him without limitations determined by court order.

Its great that he has a cooperative attitude and is complying with the court process but that's all he should be doing. Enabling his slag ex is a bad idea...she'll whine like a baby in court and there are instances where judges fall for that bull....so be careful.

Find a better lawyer and get her cut off. The poorer she is and the more desperate she is, the more likely that she'll accept a lower settlement rather than go to court.

Your fiance should have all the leverage right now because he has all the money...but that leverage only works if he uses it to force her to settle.

Thanks for being kind and I truly appreciate the time you're taking to offer advice. I will encourage him to speak to another lawyer and agree with what you and Arabian have been saying. It makes sense.
He already gets a monthly accounting of legal fees but perhaps he needs someone willing to fight harder for him instead of maintaining the "easier" status quo. I will look into it and keep you updated.

Thanks,
Faye

[Faye]

Your man has to be prepared to move when early negotiations commence or she will simply go to court and show the judge what she has been receiving to date. You don't want it to get to that point - ideally you want to negotiate the interim SS out-of-court/on consent.

He'll be ready. While I know I've come across as naive and borderline delusional lol, we're not. We work hard, we're good people and while we want to believe the best about people we're not pushovers. He's allowed her to take advantage for this long and it was a mistake. We'll rectify it. Somewhere there must have been an inkling that this can't be all good or I wouldn't have come here looking for assurances.
Believe me, he wants to cut her off very very badly so this isn't going to be a tough sell however, since two different lawyers have advised against cutting her off completely he'll want confirmation that it won't come back to bite him in the ass.
We'll look into it and hopefully I'll find someone for him that will kick her ass for him.

Faye

[Janus]

I can think of a reason that a lawyer might say not to cut off the joint account.

Many of the cases I have read, where the income earning spouse cuts off the unemployed spouse, it is seen as a bad faith move because the unemployed spouse now has no means of living and is forced to go to the courts for relief. The courts then order a ridiculously high interim spousal support. The theory is that if the amount is too high then that can be adjusted at the trial. In reality of course, recipients almost never have to pay back any money that they actually get.

I would have cancelled any overdraft privileges on the account, and then just stopped putting money in there. Or at the very least, a lot less money. You cannot just leave the recipient penniless.

And yeah, traditional means "one adult in the marriage didn't do any paid work". Arguing that she was a useless slug doesn't make the marriage any less traditional. Most stay at home parents are useless slugs, and they all get lots of support ordered from the courts.

[Faye]

I can think of a reason that a lawyer might say not to cut off the joint account.

Many of the cases I have read, where the income earning spouse cuts off the unemployed spouse, it is seen as a bad faith move because the unemployed spouse now has no means of living and is forced to go to the courts for relief. The courts then order a ridiculously high interim spousal support. The theory is that if the amount is too high then that can be adjusted at the trial. In reality of course, recipients almost never have to pay back any money that they actually get.

I would have cancelled any overdraft privileges on the account, and then just stopped putting money in there. Or at the very least, a lot less money. You cannot just leave the recipient penniless.

And yeah, traditional means "one adult in the marriage didn't do any paid work". Arguing that she was a useless slug doesn't make the marriage any less traditional. Most stay at home parents are useless slugs, and they all get lots of support ordered from the courts.

Thanks Janus,
That's how the lawyer explained it. If however I'm reading what PH and Arabian are saying, all the other benefits total quite a lot and since he's already giving her 1,600.00 monthly in addition they were expenses incurred that weren't necessary for him/his company to pay out.
The other downside is that her gas, cell and insurance are not considered valid deductions to reduce income for SS so that will be added back to his income. Had he cut her off of those, it wouldn't be an issue now.

Faye

[Rioe]

Thanks Janus,
That's how the lawyer explained it. If however I'm reading what PH and Arabian are saying, all the other benefits total quite a lot and since he's already giving her 1,600.00 monthly in addition they were expenses incurred that weren't necessary for him/his company to pay out.
The other downside is that her gas, cell and insurance are not considered valid deductions to reduce income for SS so that will be added back to his income. Had he cut her off of those, it wouldn't be an issue now.

So he's been paying her $1600 cash, paying the mortgage and expenses on the property she lives in, as well as paying her cell, insurance and gas money, for two years and counting. Rough estimate, how much money would that be a month? Call it $5000? So, he's now set a precedent for paying her $5000 a month SS into the future, indefinitely because of the length of the marriage. Never be generous in family law, or it will never stop.

It's normal at separation to divide the finances. That's what separation IS. Close joint accounts, etc. I can't fathom any lawyer who would advise against that, because then you end up with situations like this one. Two years down the road, it's hard to get that going, but he could give it a try. Shut off her cell phone if it's in his name and make her get her own. Get her off his insurance and she'll have to get her own. If she drives a company car, take it back and make her get her own. Etc. Figure out what he thinks a reasonable amount of SS he'd be willing to pay would be and pay her that. NOTHING MORE. Subtract the amount CS would be if you impute a minimum wage income on her, or the amount of the SS, whichever is greater. Don't omit her CS payment because she is legally obliged to support her child. Then she has to pay all her own expenses from that money. If she gets upset, tell her things have dragged long enough, it's unsustainable, and it's time to get an agreement in place. Repeat your reasonable offer and ask for her counter.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Many of the cases I have read, where the income earning spouse cuts off the unemployed spouse, it is seen as a bad faith move because the unemployed spouse now has no means of living and is forced to go to the courts for relief. The courts then order a ridiculously high interim spousal support. The theory is that if the amount is too high then that can be adjusted at the trial. In reality of course, recipients almost never have to pay back any money that they actually get.

I might have bought this logic 1 year post separation. But in 3 years post separation, she's made zero move to sustain herself as an able-bodied adult? Nah, the argument is completely bogus.

Come on...a $600/month gas card? I drive over 2 hrs a day for work and spend nowhere near that....its simply ridiculous.

Any lawyer worth a nickle would have added up the amounts this poster is talking about monthly and told this guy to stop feeding this leech. And at least, they should have told them to cut off joint accounts where she was running up withdrawal debts...that has nothing to do with normal SS.

I know many, many, many litigants that have to find ways to support themselves until they get agreements in place. I've never seen one anyone get penalized for cutting off support...especially when you're talking about a separation that hasn't moved along in 3 years.

The reason its taking this long is pretty straight forward. Because why on earth would she want anything to change when he's handing over more money than she'd get close to making with an SS agreement.

She's lucky she's not dealing with me...I'd cut this lazy loser off in a second and make her prove entitlement. I wouldn't give a crap what the lawyer said.

[arabian]

When operating our trucking company I recall one day receiving an outrageous fuel bill. Upon closer scrutiny I discovered that our new driver had been purchasing his cigarettes on our company account. I put a stop to that right away. You would be surprised what you can put on a gas card.

[Faye]

Thanks Rioe,
It's in the works. Have an appointment with another lawyer on Monday. Answer has been signed and will be served on the other side next week. Income evaluation will be in next week also. As soon as we have that he'll cut off all benefits she's been receiving.

Arabian, the way his company has structured their gas cards is for fuel purchases only. She can't purchase anything else with the card.

[arabian]

Remember - 'the Devil is in the details' check out the detail of the gas card (frequency & location of fill, type grade of gas).... might be someone else befitting. All it takes is proof of dishonest transaction in something to cast doubt on things in the future (her budget line items). My ex's g/f did much of my ex's paperwork and she was a disaster and lied on much of documentation which did, indeed, come back to haunt them eventually.

[Faye]

We have. There's the sudden use of premium gas which frankly doesn't make any sense as it just means she'll run out of money sooner. We will have to look into it tomorrow though as she has apparently burned through her 600 already this month...

[arabian]

she's probably filling someone else's car and taking cash.. if she's into that then she's into the gift card scam as well.

[Pursuinghappiness]

lol...I'd buy premium gas every time I filled up too if my ex was footing the bill at 600 bucks a month.

[Faye]

lol...I'd buy premium gas every time I filled up too if my ex was footing the bill at 600 bucks a month.

Why? As I said he took the average. She regularly spent more than that. Premium doesn't stretch the dollar out as much lol. All those trips to and from her life of leisure at the cottage....