how do interim support orders work - affect the final order later?

[ddol1]

I wanted to ask others who dealt with SS what their experience was with the process (what is the norm??) Is backdating of an interim SS order ever heard of or does that always get dealt with at the final order? (It does assume our file will end up in court?) I admit I made the mistake of assuming but I am in a serious hurt and I have been caught offguard in a huge way.....


Tommorow was the 4th attempt, put off again, this time because ex chose to throw in a no/nothing offer in two days before the SS motion and this time my lawyer was not able to deal with it in time...... told it now is a costs game and "forces" us to put one out before we have proper disclosure and I get the last of the verification of various banking for one.

If I were to ask a question, do the judges easily see through really ridiculous offer to settle attempts?? It would be given but what is being declared in our court docs now, the offer to settle is one page, deals with nothing (she walks away), under 1/2 low range table amount, oh and I don't make enough on CPP so the suggestion is to just have me pay NEAR 5 times the cs table amount for the last two older kids (yes they are mostly self supporting, have been for a while, but there is 1 year and 2 for the other left to finish post secondary). Just a shame, waste of paper and money??

[Tayken]

I wanted to ask others who dealt with SS what their experience was with the process (what is the norm??) Is backdating of an interim SS order ever heard of or does that always get dealt with at the final order? (It does assume our file will end up in court?) I admit I made the mistake of assuming but I am in a serious hurt and I have been caught offguard in a huge way.....

I don't understand what you are asking.

Are you asking:

If a judge can order retroactively to the date of separation spousal support. The answer is yes.

There are no "norms" to SS other than:

1. Proving on the balance of probabilities you are *entitled* to the support.
2. Financial disclosure from both parties to determine the amount of support to be paid provided you pass test #1.

If you are NOT entitled to SS and you went forward with a motion and dragged the other party in because you "feel" you are entitled and an offer to settle contrary to your request to court on motion has been submitted prior to the motion hearing you will have to deal with that at costs determination.

Tommorow was the 4th attempt, put off again, this time because ex chose to throw in a no/nothing offer in two days before the SS motion and this time my lawyer was not able to deal with it in time......

Why be so concerned with an offer to settle? You seem dead-set that you are entitled to the support and have the evidence in support of your entitlement to such support.

I was told it now is a costs game and "forces" us to put one out before we have proper disclosure and I get the last of the verification of various banking for one.

Why are you forced to do this? You are not obligated to make a counter offer. It is a good idea to do so but, without the proper financial disclosures there really is no proper way to do it.

Furthermore, your lawyer should be requesting an order for full and frank financial disclosure in accordance with Rule 13. But, you have some elaborate disclosure requests as I recall.

What is important to support is the line 150 on the income tax return and not all the other piles of evidence you are seeking in my honest opinion. If the other party has disclosed their income then, it will be used to determine, if you are *entitled to support* for the calculation of the payable.

If I were to ask a question, do the judges easily see through really ridiculous offer to settle attempts??

If you are going on motion (and not to a case conference, settlement conference or trial management conference) the judge will not and legally (and in accordance with the Rules) can not see the offer to settle until after a judgement is rendered. So, if you are going to motion shortly why all the fuss about what is in the offer to settle. It weighs really bad on the other party if they were completely unreasonable in their offer to settle and they were way off the mark.

It would be given but what is being declared in our court docs now, the offer to settle is one page, deals with nothing (she walks away), under 1/2 low range table amount, oh and I don't make enough on CPP so the suggestion is to just have me pay NEAR 5 times the cs table amount for the last two older kids (yes they are mostly self supporting, have been for a while, but there is 1 year and 2 for the other left to finish post secondary).

CS will be calculated off your ACTUAL income. Not a made up number or the "best wishes" of the other party. CS is based on table amounts and the start of the formula is your line 150 income.

MySupportCalculator.ca

Just a shame, waste of paper and money??

The judge will decide at the motion. If you are unsuccessful in your Application for SS and fail the entitlement test that will be applied. You could be forced to pay costs and learn a very valuable lesson on being reasonable. If you are entitled and you have proven it and it is ordered... The other party may have to pay your costs and learn a very valuable lesson on being reasonable.

Costs are not dealt with until the motion is done.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[ddol1]

Thank you Tayken;
Ok you understood it all - really great job. If there is one thing, it would be the clarification if yes SS can be ordered and backdated right then at the motion without waiting till the end in how long??? For me it is needed today to solve today's problems. I just can't wrap it around my head that my lawyer strongly feels that backdating will not fly on the motion - it is done at the end on final settlement

I admit I have been caught in the wait game only because, my lawyer is out of town for what will be the week - he did want me to see the stuff that was sent.... and to relax after I hit the roof - he did say it is not acceptable, but at the same time I do not understand why we wrote "first to mention costs and then the need for the offer or counter (to be honest I did have one of my recent, firm but polite meltdowns on putting an end to what I would think of as running me out of money with the two, three letters a week from the ex's lawyer - then the countless "phone calls" this compared to my lawyer who had to send off letter number two; a partial throw of the white flag for everyone concerned, but mostly the kids. To put an end to whatever we both think of last Xmas and the criminal stuff, to move forward and deal as adults our "family law" differences and find that place where we will both move on "to the best of our ability"....... she flatly refused and although I really just see it as the "par for the course expected" she then went on to throw gasoline onto the fire.... I told my I can't just let this bleed me dry, he has to see what it takes, if they do not come to the table, then move it to the courts - I know she sits pretty now and has no desire; Ex wants this to go on for the next two or three years and it is in writing, filed with the court.

Furthermore, your lawyer should be requesting an order for full and frank financial disclosure in accordance with Rule 13. But, you have some elaborate disclosure requests as I recall.

This I have looked at her three 13.1 disclosures, and given that I have all our documents, she knows I have them (or copies), her tax returns, banking, but naturally not her current stuff - this last had them inserting her 2010 income, doubling her expenses and using my "inflated" 2012 income - this stuff has been ongoing... I know their attempts are all about adding smoke and mirrors - and she refuses to provide the documents that the CC judge ordered , lawyer said I do the best I can (I am thankful again to our Bank, how they have done everything and much more but it is taking time) then it would be (re)ordered by the court when the time comes..... I am getting it done slow - sadly my medical is really impacting my ability to "get it done already" but I know it has to get done by the person I see in the mirror.

Thank you again from all to your efforts to prep and post all you do!
The links you have given me personally, all the ones about people, being reasonable, avoid court, even the alienation/HAP which really let me understand what is really going on all have hit home for me. I actually pinned the Dr. Fidler post on my wall right in front of me - for the real perspectives of the children.... gold.

[ddol1]

sorry I forgot to add to the benefit of the entitlement, I know I have read the acts, but before I had, three lawyers looked at our details and each without question said there is the right to SS; without a doubt. So I have stopped worrying about that part - just has taken time. We are at motion because the support software gives up a support number I could live with, barely (high number would be nice as far as the monthly medical expenses) but they held hard at $200, then $400 last week, they now have it at $550 but all considered that is not even half of the calculator and a far cry under what I am short every month - why I had posted the last few times on what is the right way?? I just want fair.

[Tayken]

Thank you Tayken;
Ok you understood it all - really great job. If there is one thing, it would be the clarification if yes SS can be ordered and backdated right then at the motion without waiting till the end in how long??? For me it is needed today to solve today's problems. I just can't wrap it around my head that my lawyer strongly feels that backdating will not fly on the motion - it is done at the end on final settlement

1. It is NOT called "backdated" it is called "arrears".
2. If the justice orders that SS should have been paid then the judge will determine the support that are in ARREARS and will order as such.
3. The judge will not bankrupt the other party and if there is nothing for which the arrears can be paid from then, the judge won't order the ARREARS.
4. Your ability to financially support yourself, any disability pensions you are getting and any additional money will and shall be considered as part of your income when determining the about of ongoing support and ARREARS if you are *entitled* to recieve it.

I admit I have been caught in the wait game only because, my lawyer is out of town for what will be the week - he did want me to see the stuff that was sent.... and to relax after I hit the roof

Why bother "hitting the roof". It is just an offer. If it is a bad offer and you have a solid case to entitlement and support arrears and ongoing support from the other party... Why waste the emotional energy?

- he did say it is not acceptable, but at the same time I do not understand why we wrote "first to mention costs and then the need for the offer or counter

Because making an offer to settle is a GOOD thing to do and making a counter offer is a GOOD idea. What is there to understand? Your lawyer is trying to settle the matter without having to go on motion. An offer to settle is a tool that can be leveraged to do that. Why you haven't made numerous offers to settle on this matter already is questionable.

(to be honest I did have one of my recent, firm but polite meltdowns on putting an end to what I would think of as running me out of money with the two, three letters a week from the ex's lawyer

You don't have to respond to every letter. In fact, if you are going to motion on this very matter... Just send an offer to settle and collect up the letters. Especially if you have such compelling evidence to your entitlement to support.

- then the countless "phone calls" this compared to my lawyer who had to send off letter number two; a partial throw of the white flag for everyone concerned, but mostly the kids.

Calm down.

To put an end to whatever we both think of last Xmas and the criminal stuff, to move forward and deal as adults our "family law" differences and find that place where we will both move on "to the best of our ability".......

Calm down. You are rambling. Please call your therapist when you get a chance to talk yourself down from all this.

she flatly refused and although I really just see it as the "par for the course expected" she then went on to throw gasoline onto the fire.... I told my I can't just let this bleed me dry, he has to see what it takes, if they do not come to the table, then move it to the courts -

You are rambling. Please collect your thoughts.

I know she sits pretty now and has no desire; Ex wants this to go on for the next two or three years and it is in writing, filed with the court.

It won't go on that long. You are going to motion. If the motion judge sees too much conflict you will find yourself on the next trial list.

This I have looked at her three 13.1 disclosures, and given that I have all our documents, she knows I have them (or copies), her tax returns, banking, but naturally not her current stuff - this last had them inserting her 2010 income, doubling her expenses and using my "inflated" 2012 income - this stuff has been ongoing...

You need to calm down. You are taking the financial disclosure as a personal attack. Calm down.

I know their attempts are all about adding smoke and mirrors - and she refuses to provide the documents that the CC judge ordered , lawyer said I do the best I can (I am thankful again to our Bank, how they have done everything and much more but it is taking time) then it would be (re)ordered by the court when the time comes.....

These are very paranoid statements. It is impossible to understand where you are going with this all.

I am getting it done slow - sadly my medical is really impacting my ability to "get it done already" but I know it has to get done by the person I see in the mirror.

You really need to let your lawyer do their job and not bother them. You have identified the challenge yourself. You need to trust your lawyer and not fret about the details.

Thank you again from all to your efforts to prep and post all you do!

The links you have given me personally, all the ones about people, being reasonable, avoid court, even the alienation/HAP which really let me understand what is really going on all have hit home for me. I actually pinned the Dr. Fidler post on my wall right in front of me - for the real perspectives of the children.... gold.

You need to calm down, relax, focus on something else. You are too litigation focused and your personal medical issues are going to become a problem. You need to find whatever you can do to notice your emotional state and if necessary please call your doctors. You are in a very anxious state and it isn't going to help you sort all this out.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Pursuinghappiness]

it would be the clarification if yes SS can be ordered and backdated right then at the motion without waiting till the end in how long???

Your posts are always rambling and extremely hard to understand. You should probably make an effort to take out all the extra long-winded paraphrasing and just ask the question.

Anyway, if you're asking if the judge will backdate your interim order to the date of your original cancelled motion or prior...its unlikely.

Two things are unclear. 1. Why are you getting negotiating settlement offers if you haven't even completed financial disclosure? 2. Why hasn't your lawyer simply filed a motion for SS? Why is he allowing 4 delays on her part? Offers to settle shouldn't be affecting your lawyer filing a motion for interim SS. Obviously its important to you to have these funds if you're entitled.

After the order is finalized, you still have a substantial wait. The order has to be sent to FRO and be registered (1 month)...then they send you and your ex a package to fill out...then you fill it out and they file and register your case (3-4 months). Assuming your ex has been paying for those months...they'll send you the balance of what was owed per the court order received...then start paying you monthly after that. So you can assume that pending a successful motion...you've got about a 5 month wait if things go smoothly.

this last had them inserting her 2010 income, doubling her expenses and using my "inflated" 2012 income - this stuff has been ongoing...

As mentioned many times...the expense list on her financial statement is irrelevant. Yours is irrelevant and so is hers. Your income and her income is what's relevant. They generally use a current paystub to determine interim SS. They will also have copies of your last 3 tax assessments.

We are at motion because the support software gives up a support number I could live with, barely (high number would be nice as far as the monthly medical expenses) but they held hard at $200, then $400 last week, they now have it at $550 but all considered that is not even half of the calculator and a far cry under what I am short every month - why I had posted the last few times on what is the right way?? I just want fair.

You're at a motion because you're having a contested divorce and want interim SS. Its the same exact process anyone requesting this goes through. It can be done immediately after a case conference and usually takes a month, with response time, if you have a competent lawyer.

I know she sits pretty now and has no desire; Ex wants this to go on for the next two or three years and it is in writing, filed with the court.

Hate to break it to you but your ex doesn't control the court process. I know you're hell bent on villifying her but this is how long divorce takes for everyone in the process. It helps a lot if you are on the ball with filing on time and getting motions started on time, etc. You may think you're special in some way and it should move faster for you..but it doesn't work that like that for anyone.

[Pursuinghappiness]

It won't go on that long. You are going to motion. If the motion judge sees too much conflict you will find yourself on the next trial list.

Tayken:

I'm not sure I'm understanding why its taking his lawyer so long to file a simple motion for interim SS if entitlement seems very likely.

Also not understanding how offers to settle are rolling in without completed financial disclosure. Generally if she hasn't supplied everything you'd either do a form 20 or in the event you've had questioning/undertakings, you'd send a letter, then file a motion to compel disclosure first.

I can only imagine the duration of time and legal bill this is going to accumulate..can't say I'm surprised.

[ddol1]

As far as the advice thank you - yes I know it is, for me today, really hard to deal with the situation I am in currently, it has to to with my body, what I am capable at this point, all which is not in my control. Tayken, I do have the suspicion that you know what is to follow - but on the chance?

Because making an offer to settle is a GOOD thing to do and making a counter offer is a GOOD idea. What is there to understand? Your lawyer is trying to settle the matter without having to go on motion. An offer to settle is a tool that can be leveraged to do that. Why you haven't made numerous offers to settle on this matter already is questionable.

My beef with the offer to settle is the proof that is needed to surpass my ex's stand - which I state Offers are good and I centered my complaint around that very issue a few weeks ago with my lawyer but my SS appearance has been going since July and I just do not know why it was put off again, enough already!!! Anything that doesn't get to making a settlement is wasting money but as you agree, disclosure has not been done. The bog down? Fully anticipated by my lawyer and I know I am not special, it is a cost of "doing business" - Raised here all the time, spouses who will do anything at any cost, hurt the kids if it hurts the other party, again this is not special, has turned out for me that every month there is a new low, and the crap her lawyer does is not my issue until it filters down to my lawyer's time, as you say put them aside but my lawyer has to read them. Why no offers all this time is all to do witih the speed at which I am capable and I never saw a point in spending any money to offer what I can't show really hard proof and although really hard, I have banked on what is take the time now, get what I will need to go before the judge, and the dirty reality is 3 hours lawyer time equals a month's disability and I won't spend money on putting an offer out that I am willing to live with.

My delemma today is the simple fact that yes I mostly knew what I had to produce. Turned out to be much more difficult and physically demanding than first invisioned but it doesn't change anything: It still must be done. I do trust my lawyer who is going conservatively and I avoid talking to him like the plague, too expensive and not productive so I use email mostly and he reads them as filler in his schedule unless I ask for the end of day and he is real good in this regard. We both know anything that comes from me is going to be aggressively questioned (this is the direct result of my medical and the state I was in the last 3 years) and I think this is good strategy. But it takes time, energy, focus, I have so many marks on my forehead from my head hitting it on the way down. It is not hard to figure I am far beyond my ability to cope physically and mentally, doing what needs to be done when I can't stay awake longer than a few hours at a time.....

You need to calm down, relax, focus on something else. You are too litigation focused and your personal medical issues are going to become a problem. You need to find whatever you can do to notice your emotional state and if necessary please call your doctors. You are in a very anxious state and it isn't going to help you sort all this out.

Wise, I do understand, I take time, my time is not good time, it is generally pain so bad it puts me in tears, time that I realize I am just getting confused or can't continue where I left off because I draw 100% blanks and I have spent so many countless hours, the whole day passes with my staring at a few pages. That may not make sense to anyone but just take it as I am past my capacity to cope, there is nobody to help so it is me or me. Why not great progress, or many offers to settle - simple, my lawyer says he is waiting for what only I can do, he checks with me but understands too. Alot is done - nothing complete because I wait on third parties who are providing the documents the court will accept.

This part of getting what must be produced takes everything I have to give and more while I deal with degrading medical issues, 4 major leg infections, and enough water - severe edema and the lovely to deal with ulcers I could continue but it is my life, I see the doctor(s) twice a month. Although I often get to the point that it takes over my head and it shows.... ramble?? (never my intent, as suggested - I delete so much because I can't get it out of my head into a post that makes sense but often it still ) I post what I am hoping to usually fill gaps that I have already really made effort to figure out, and failed.... I am in that state as Tayken put it so much that I just go on - it is my life now, I work to the day when this is over and I would love nothing more than to just walk away, life is too short and too important. Reality is I do not have a choice, if I am going to make ends meet. Again many thanks to both.....