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  • Financials--proving the paper trail and uncovering the truth

    I hope somebody could lend their knowledge and experience in the court process when it comes to proving or disproving our financials which dictatte the final net family properties for both of us and finally the equalization payment. Naturally from the Ex it is all denial, lies or she has no recollection. Her lawyer likes to call me bizarre!! (ok maybe I am but the claims aren't.... and perhaps after how many months of trying to figure all that went on under my nose - I am biased - but today my using the words lie and deny are my being polite....)

    Yes I have had several people who started in disbelief and ended with their conclusion of total disbelief in what my ex actually did. The paperwork and her signatures, her bank card, her closing out joint accounts and transfering everything into her accounts. My accident 25 years ago and the settlements paid go all the way back to the 80's, important today as we decided back then to deposit them into my retirement fund, transfering as soon as possible into my RRSP and there it sits today.

    Family Law states the payments for damages, pain, (all non income type payments) are now excludable as they were kept seperate and in no better place than my RRSP). I also have plenty of issues going back just a few years (3-4) when I did get real sick, but again going back to the 80's, not every receipt is still here but there is a very strong paper trail going back to the actual check stubs of the payments to the flow of the payments until my rrsp contribution room opened up to allow the deposits.

    My Three Questions are:
    1. The lawyer said that we would probably need to hire the forensic accountant to sign off on the paper trail and the evidence (due to the amount of money involved and how many years going back - and there are alot of bank statements I do admit but at least I have them or all would be lost). This just due to the fact that she refuses to accept anything, regardless of the issue she has chosen to lie, deny or otherwise claim no recollection eventhough there is paper records, bank account records and all the documents which tie back to day one, all the bank records with her signature, her bank card. When evidence is really obvious is there ever any reprocussion to the party who choses to deny and lie regardless (as in having to cover the cost of the accountant that just shows her lies over and over??? - In the end, that is when the evidence does prove to be overwhelming - would a judge even care what the cost was to prove a party's lies?

    2. Going back to the 80's is a long time, no the records are not 100% complete but the majority is here, payment stubs, tax records, that show at least the money was saved, then the rrsp deposit records are here... does this type of evidence need to be 100% from 25 years ago or is it the case of really , really strong evidence given what records are here today enough to meet that burden of proof?

    3 the last few years when I did get sick (I actually got so low as to be only be able to speak jibberish at times, short term memory was horrible and I have had to rebuild several years of my life through the help of others, with the documentation mostly and I really only learned much of my financial horror only after she said divorce as I have mentioned in the past.) So my question here is when it comes to the courts - do they put great wieght on the actual statements and documents that can be presented - more so than say what I may say or she may say..... The court would rather see and accept her signature on a document(s) or her signature at the bank, or her bank card and pin number begin to carry more wieght than "her lies"?

  • #2
    Forensic accountants are expensive. They will likely require a substantial retainer.

    Documentation is indeed the way to go. If you are adept at using spread sheets I would suggest that you summarize the information. Present that to your wife and ask her what her feelings are on retaining a forensic accountant. Basically indicate that you are willing to go that route if she puts up 1/2 of the retainer. Be magnanimous about it and present yourself as just wanting to get the facts 100% correct etc.

    Comment


    • #3
      Arabian:

      I'm not sure why she'd agree to joint retain a forensic accountant. I certainly wouldn't in her shoes. Its not just the extreme cost that would take...its the fact that these are personal funds, not business funds...so not only does the accountant have to look at ridiculously old records...they'd have to look at how the funds were used. ie...if the funds were then used for marital expenses or to buy material property which may already be included in equalization. In order to prove misuse, I'd assume you'd have to prove these funds were used for the accused spouses personal gain instead of things that benefitted either the children or the marital household.

      If I were her, I'd take my chances being order to pick up costs for this because its unlikely anyway given the nature of what's been alleged. The costs and time are extremely prohibitive. Unless she's got some secret swiss bank account squirrelled away with a clear line between his disability rrsp deposits and subsequent withdrawals to her account number...good luck with that. Anything other than that and I'll bet you the forensic accountant bill far, far, far, far outweights any benefit in equalization at the end of the day.

      If I was a judge, one of my first questions would be "If this allegedly dates back to the 80's, why didn't you know your ex was supposely stealing from you for that length of time?" For instance, if my spouse was making extractions from my RRSP, it would show up on my statement. If the use of those same funds was to pay expenses to enrich the marriage or benefit the kids/family (ie, vacation, kid's tuition, boats)...its a waste of time.

      It just sounds to me that this may be valid...its a lot of looking under rocks for nickels & dimes and that never bodes well for the party that's wasting time and money looking. In my opinion, there's a very clear agenda here.

      Comment


      • #4
        PH - good points.

        Offering to put it to a forensic accountant would probably shut both parties up and enable them to move on. I assume that the funds in question are well over 500,000? (a fund pd into for over 30 yrs would be substantial) If that is the case 10 - 15K might be justified. OP could go and get a quote before he presents the proposal to the ex.

        Comment


        • #5
          I assume that the funds in question are well over 500,000? (a fund pd into for over 30 yrs would be substantial) If that is the case 10 - 15K might be justified.
          Arabian: I totally agree. If this person has an account with 500k sitting in it that the OP could prove is directly tied to his disability payments, 20k to use an accountant to figure out that glaring smoking gun is no big deal. Again, she's highly unlikely to agree to pay for it until ordered though.

          Just my opinion however, that the more likely scenario is that if funds were removed...both parties were either aware of it in some fashion and/or the monies were used to benefit the marital household or children. Again given the length of time and the frequency of withdrawals...you'd have to be pretty spaced the hell out not to know what was going on. I get a lot of statements from my accounts and if I was having monies withdrawn since the 80's...believe me, I'd know about it.

          Just my opinion but what it sounds like to me is the "Because you dumped me, I now want to keep all my money from our long marriage even though we both used it to benefit the marriage" and frankly, that's not gonna go over too well in court. Its akin to bitching about the credit card bill during a divorce because your ex used to buy a lot of shoes and food that you didn't eat.

          Unless she's got an account with a whole lot of money sitting in it which can be directly tied to his disability payments...this is probably going to be an expensive paperwork nightmare and a total waste of time and money.

          However, I guess it won't be the first or last time someone spent a crapload of money on a pointless crusade rather than just figuring out how to become empowered and independent after divorce.


          Offering to put it to a forensic accountant would probably shut both parties up and enable them to move on.
          Agreed again, I'm for any suggestion that gets people to move along and get a life. But given the mentality here...in my opinion, it probably ain't gonna happen.

          I like these types of posts though because they help put my situation into perspective and make me realize how fortunate I am in my own divorce situation. Everytime I read a post like this, I think...well my ex is crazy but not THAT crazy. Unlike these OPs, I might actually get my divorce mess over by the next millenium (I hope!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
            you'd have to be pretty spaced the hell out not to know what was going on.
            If I recall his situation correctly, he WAS spaced out due to injury and pain medication. He has said that she had power of attorney for him and looked after all the finances. And now, due to the separation, he has finally gone through the finances and discovered that a lot of money is unaccounted for.

            You can tell from his posts that he's still affected by the pain and medication.

            Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
            Just my opinion but what it sounds like to me is the "Because you dumped me, I now want to keep all my money from our long marriage even though we both used it to benefit the marriage" and frankly, that's not gonna go over too well in court. Its akin to bitching about the credit card bill during a divorce because your ex used to buy a lot of shoes and food that you didn't eat.

            Unless she's got an account with a whole lot of money sitting in it which can be directly tied to his disability payments...this is probably going to be an expensive paperwork nightmare and a total waste of time and money.

            However, I guess it won't be the first or last time someone spent a crapload of money on a pointless crusade rather than just figuring out how to become empowered and independent after divorce.

            Agreed again, I'm for any suggestion that gets people to move along and get a life. But given the mentality here...in my opinion, it probably ain't gonna happen.

            I like these types of posts though because they help put my situation into perspective and make me realize how fortunate I am in my own divorce situation. Everytime I read a post like this, I think...well my ex is crazy but not THAT crazy. Unlike these OPs, I might actually get my divorce mess over by the next millenium (I hope!)
            And again, if I recall his situation correctly, it was one of those long term marriages where his injury payout was put into the marital home instead of being kept separate, with the intention that this short-term decision would be balanced out by his benefiting from her support and pension later in life. Now she seeks to separate from him and keep the entire marital home without paying back any of the injury compensation money or any spousal support or any share of her pension.

            He probably is going overboard getting a forensic accountant, but in his place wouldn't we all be worried about a judge believing our ex's story without one?

            Comment


            • #7
              And again, if I recall his situation correctly, it was one of those long term marriages where his injury payout was put into the marital home instead of being kept separate, with the intention that this short-term decision would be balanced out by his benefiting from her support and pension later in life. Now she seeks to separate from him and keep the entire marital home without paying back any of the injury compensation money or any spousal support or any share of her pension.

              He probably is going overboard getting a forensic accountant, but in his place wouldn't we all be worried about a judge believing our ex's story without one?
              Firstly it was simply my opinion...based on some other information I was privately messaged.

              However, she can't keep the proceeds from entire house anyway and spousal support will be ordered if entitlement is proven, whether she likes it or not. You don't need a forensic accountant for either one of those things.

              Again, if there's a trail between disability payments to secretly banked monies....the expense and time of a forensic accountant is highly recommended. I'd do it too. However, if a litigant was trying to say...this money came out, was used to purchase marital property or pay bills...and I don't like what it was spent on even though it benefitted either the household or the children, its a lot harder road and probably less worthy of the expediture.

              I wish I could go back in my marriage and say that I want all the money back from my paychecks during that time for purchases that I didn't like or didn't agree with but obviously that's unreasonable. Hiring a forensic accountant for those types of things would be highly wasteful. Frankly, a lot of people realize during divorce that they wasted a lot of money on frivolous partners or frivolous marital items during divorce, get super pissed off about it, and spend a lot of time and money trying to recover it rather just realizing that they're better off moving on.

              Just depends on what the situation is. And given the duration of time of these alleged unnoticed withdrawals (and I sincerely hope that the OP hasn't been on copious pain drugs since the 80s), it simply makes one curious as to what the actual situation is.

              Again, the OP can spend money on hiring whatever accountant he wants...its his money to waste. If I was his ex, however, I wouldn't agree to pay a dime of it until ordered.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
                I wish I could go back in my marriage and say that I want all the money back from my paychecks during that time for purchases that I didn't like or didn't agree with but obviously that's unreasonable. Hiring a forensic accountant for those types of things would be highly wasteful. Frankly, a lot of people realize during divorce that they wasted a lot of money on frivolous partners or frivolous marital items during divorce, get super pissed off about it, and spend a lot of time and money trying to recover it rather just realizing that they're better off moving on.
                This makes me realize one huge inequity of equalization. What if one spouse liked non-material things, went on a lot of solo vacations, lots of expensive spa weekends with friends, with nothing to show for it, etc. The other spouse collected something material, artwork, cigars, baseball cards. Say each spouse spent the same amount of the household entertainment budget on their respective hobbies, so the money asset was divided equally all along. Now at separation, the non-material spouse is entitled to half the value of material spouse's collection, purely because it's tangible, even though both spouses spent the same amount of money along the way. Does that seem right?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Rioe:

                  Along those lines, this is a funny article Hubby sues wife over $1m shoe collection in divorce battle | The Sun |News .

                  You raise a good point and unfortunately I think its a case of modified Caveat Emptor...ie, beware of who you marry. I think the bottom line is that couples need to understand how marital assets work...especially in the event of a dissolution. You need to agree and have common values on how to spend money inside the marriage and be careful of what/how you acquire assets in the event of divorce. The example you gave is an interesting one. I think it would be naive to assume that people in marriages always spend money equally though anyway.

                  Divorce will probably never be completely fair but the laws are pretty clearcut with regard to property division. I have no doubt that for some people its really hard to just realize that they made not only an emotional mistake but a huge financial one and move on.

                  Tayken brought up a point once that engaged couples should attend a class about divorce including custody and financial equalization before they were able to obtain a marriage license....and given the divorce rate (especially due to financial issues), its probably a very good idea.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it is unfathomable to request an audit of 20 years old events. Forensic accountant? Who keeps all records for 20 years, any way? Wait, 20 yeas is only 92, we are talking at least 25 years back.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think it is unfathomable to request an audit of 20 years old events. Forensic accountant? Who keeps all records for 20 years, any way? Wait, 20 yeas is only 92, we are talking at least 25 years back.
                      I totally agree...particularly for non-business funds where you have to consider how the funds were used. The expense of a forensic accountant for this would be extreme and unreasonable.

                      You can't blame your ex-spouse for your own lack of personal responsibility for the last 30-some years. The judge won't either.

                      I'd question the ethnics of any lawyer suggesting this to a client and the mentality and motives of any client who'd consider doing it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I do. Through my divorce my ex even requested some documents from me which I happily provided. Didn't help him but certainly put the facts on the table. Maybe this OP just wants to deal in facts rather than fiction. If it's substantial amount of money, and if it is relevant in his case, I wouldn't be surprised to learn he hires someone in the accounting field. He doesn't necessarily need a "forensic" accountant you know.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Arabian:

                          Again...if the funds are substantial and weren't used to purchase marital property or pay bills or fund the kid's...I agree with you. A forensic accountant is in order.

                          But for 30 years of personal finances? Maybe 5-10 years....but you have to admit that 30 years of personal...not business funds..is highly ridiculous. I don't have any accounts that I haven't checked a statement on for 30 years.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            yes I agree. Banks are only happy to provide records (for a not-so-cheap fee) going back many, many years.

                            Is it worth it? I wouldn't think so as just the cost of having the lawyer review it would be large. I think it's pretty anal. Oh well, each to their own nightmare.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Arabian:

                              Unless she's got a swiss bank account full of cash...I would say it isn't worth it to go back that far. And the problem is that lawyers LOVE clients that they can trump up this type of nonsense with.

                              I just know of a couple cases where the ex-spouse tried to show a siphoning of funds without their knowledge. ie... coworker that got divorced...she had spent about 80k on plastic surgery, then once she had it...she left him for another guy....and her ex tried to suggest she basically robbed him of funds for this. It went no where and the fight cost a lot of money for both of them. If she had 80k sitting in a bank account that she withdrew after he left, he may have gotten somewhere.

                              As you said, it is a nightmare. I'd hate to see the cost of this particular divorce at the end.

                              Comment

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