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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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Old 06-13-2010, 05:20 PM
LostFather LostFather is offline
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Default Verbal Physiological Abuse of Children?

Ok, here is a question I have. When a parent uses physiological (now I'm not doctor) on a child, why do docotrs or CAS say it's not abuse, do I need a seccond opinion, or am I just sensitive. Eample:

Children come home and when on the topic of "strangers", my older son pipes up and says, "mom says you left us for that woman, and to feed that whore's son"

When after the children where home with me for an extended time, they'd of course, like they do when they come home to dad's talk about their time here. My younger boy would either call my wife by her name, or step mom or yes even sometimes he slips and says mom. She freaks, tells them not to call her that, then he would call her "my step mom", he would get yelled at for that, finally he would use her first name, not allowed to use that name either. Anyway, when talking about a board game that we play as a family quite frequently, she told my younger son, who's 6, if you like it some much there then get the F out, pack your bags, go live with your father then.

She constantly tells them that they only have one home, with her, that they only 'visit' me, we of course tell them that our home is there home, and it's okay to have 2 homes. She constantly tells them that there is only 3 in my boys family, her and my 2 boys, we tell them that they have many in thier family, including their mother.

Anyway, the list goes on and on, and can deal with the vast majority of it, but what the heck do I do about the other? I met with my doctor who is the children's doctor and my ex's. I mentioned this too him, he's well aware of her medical past. He tells my that though it's sickening, there is no physical abuse! Okay, but what about physiological abuse...nope nothing he can really do, except maybe have a 'chat' with her.

So, I thought I would make a call for information only, went over the scenario, and they were not overly interested. Is it because it's mainly directed at me, my wife or her son, that it seems okay, kids talk to each other, and when they come here and repeat this crap, my step son hears this and it tears, wondering what he ever did to my child's mother as he takes it personally. We of course talk to him and reassure him that he did nothing wrong. But heck, it's been almost 4 years, she just can't/won't get over it.

I can't help but wonder in my male, conspiracy laden and angry father's mind that if the tables were turned, would it be the same answers? Is there anyway to deal with this crap, or should I just let it go and document, which I've already done.
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Old 06-13-2010, 05:36 PM
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to me the emotional damage she is doing could be worse then any physical damage. Emotional wounds take a long time to heal if they heal at all.

To me what she is doing is a form of abuse. Just because it doesn't leave visable marks doesn't make it any less harmful to the kids
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Old 06-13-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standing on the sidelines View Post
to me the emotional damage she is doing could be worse then any physical damage. Emotional wounds take a long time to heal if they heal at all.

To me what she is doing is a form of abuse. Just because it doesn't leave visable marks doesn't make it any less harmful to the kids
Hmm, yes, emotional abuse. Maybe that would be a more appropriate term. The thing is there seems to be no support in the system to curtail this kind of abuse. None anyway that anyone (authoritative) seems to be too concerned about.
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Old 06-13-2010, 06:09 PM
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Wouldn't that fall under the category of parental alienation as well?
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Old 06-13-2010, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
Wouldn't that fall under the category of parental alienation as well?

That's a big hill to climb and how do I prove it, it's just my wife's and I word against hers, they're too young to bring in front of the judge. I did record it, but not too sure how that would play out. I'm sure they'd find someway to turn it back on me
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Old 06-13-2010, 08:50 PM
billiechic billiechic is offline
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My daughter is 3, almost 4. For the past few months she has talked about mommy and daddy "getting back together" at least 15 times. She has said that daddy told her I didn't want to live at our old house anymore. And last week she told me "Daddy has to spend his birthday alone". (actually, he will have her on his birthday, he was saying that I wouldn't be there)

He is telling her things so that she will tell me, to try to make me feel bad for leaving him. These are things he should not be saying to her, or withing her hearing. I've talked to him about it, he denies it, but obviously someone is telling her.

I know that really doesn't hold a candle to your ex's words. But I understand. I don't know what to do other then reassure my child, the same way you are. We could make this into a huge court battle, but I doubt that is going to solve anything. It will only give the other side more things to be bitter about and fuel the anger.

My only suggestion ( other than documenting it) is to get your kids into counselling or a support group. The support group work really well, since there are other kids there and they don't feel as pressured. In time they will see that mom's bad mouth is full of lies.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:26 PM
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Default Just A Phase

Though I agree it is physcological abuse but believe me one day or the other kids wil know it.Children are smarter than we think.I was separated when mine were at 2.25 yrs and 8 months and left the house 10 months later.

He commited adultery and would still tell my daughter that your mom has a bf and thats where she wants to be.I kept my cool and made her understand and apart from three of us do u see anyone else.She understood and over the time now she will be 7 yrs this sep and ignores all his lies and manupulations.
I was shocked when few days before she asked me if she could just see him during days as she has horrible nights over there.So if one parent is being aweful other has to deal with more maturity .Kids are smart and understand everything.You can fool them till 5-6 but not when they are 8+.

When he got kicked out from his gf house too my daughter told me --dad says he left Miss GF becuase she used to yell at me ut believe me mummy I know he must have misbehaved.

So wait for the day and till then concentrate on your kids and your own life
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Old 06-14-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billiechic View Post
My daughter is 3, almost 4. For the past few months she has talked about mommy and daddy "getting back together" at least 15 times. She has said that daddy told her I didn't want to live at our old house anymore. And last week she told me "Daddy has to spend his birthday alone". (actually, he will have her on his birthday, he was saying that I wouldn't be there)

He is telling her things so that she will tell me, to try to make me feel bad for leaving him. These are things he should not be saying to her, or withing her hearing. I've talked to him about it, he denies it, but obviously someone is telling her.

I know that really doesn't hold a candle to your ex's words. But I understand. I don't know what to do other then reassure my child, the same way you are. We could make this into a huge court battle, but I doubt that is going to solve anything. It will only give the other side more things to be bitter about and fuel the anger.

My only suggestion ( other than documenting it) is to get your kids into counselling or a support group. The support group work really well, since there are other kids there and they don't feel as pressured. In time they will see that mom's bad mouth is full of lies.
What she said. Not much you can do except to wait on your kids becoming old enough to judge that behaviour for themselves. Sad but true.
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Old 06-14-2010, 08:55 AM
Sara08 Sara08 is offline
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I have great sympaty for what you are going through LostFather!! My husband and I have been through all of these hoops with the frustration of seeing a great child pulled into the insane anger and hate that an individual has for their father. We have been battling PAS for almost 8 years and your right - no one except you really cares. CAS doesn't have any resources, family doctors see it as a 'family matter'. Some of the things that we have done in the past are: waiting it out - we thought it was just a phase, of both the child and the mother, thinking that soon as she moved on and got a boyfriend, she would let up. WRONG now she has something to prove to her new partner. We tried enforcing access, until the child became physcially and emotionally abusive to my 2 younger kids, he starved himself to the point of vomiting, he stayed in his room for HOURS at a time crying saying that we don't take care of him and he needs to go home. We tried to increase telephone access to his mom at these times, but he became so depressed that he would just scream to be taken home and then she would 'support' him being there saying he 'should be having a great time with his dad' which just made the child feel more guilt at not pleasing her to the point he wouldn't call her anymore. We tried asking for the child to be in therapy to make his visits pleasant and to get him help. Denied by the mother. Now his relationship with his dad is a phone call once a week that is coached by his mother at his side. Now a light of hope, (I am sorry to be so negative, I only hope that you can learn from my experience) PAS is starting to be recognized by the courts, look up case law on canlii to know what you are looking for. Maintain access!!! Keep intouch with the doctor and focus on physcial symptoms - watch for depression or anxiety in your son. Keep in close contact with the teachers at school and any changes in behaviour, learning problems or signs that he is showing at school (when he gets there). Ask for third parties support in getting therapy - it can only benefit the child not to prove bad parenting - keep this in mind, it is not a tool for retaliation. As for additional children, the best thing you can do is set a great example for them. Let them see a realtionship that works, support communication between everyone, open the lines of asking questions and TRY NOT TO LOSE YOUR COOL (in front of the kids for sure, we all need to vent in some way or we would explode, lots of exercise helps). I still have a hard time with this, it's not easy. I hope this helps and I hope that soon the system changes to not depend on pitting children against their parents as a way to prove something. I wish you the best of luck! Ask lots of questions here and keep an eye on the posts, you are not the only one going through this, trust me.
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:12 PM
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In my opinion, where your child makes a comment that "mommy say's X", you should be notifying your ex in a clearly focused child centric email that neither parent should speak negatively about the other parent, that parents spouse and new family.

My standard is pretty much as follows:

"X,

During a conversation with our child today, they stated that you/your mom/your new BF/your new b/f mom's 3rd aunts second cousin said "blah, blah, blah". I believe it is the child's best interests that they not to be included or involved in any conversation which denegrates the other parent. Further, it is our responsibility to ensure that the child is not involved in such conversations and also that we do not let anyone else speak negatively about the other parent in the presense of our child.

I respectfully request that you ensure that our child is not included or involved in any such conversations moving forward. Should our child continue to be involved in such conversations I will be forced to seek counselling for our child in order to ensure they receive proper consultation and treatment as continued disparaging comments can hamper our childs development the relationship they have with each parent.

I look forward to your continued effort in this regard.

Thank you."

But you have to put it in writing to your ex that you know what is going on and that you believe it is not in the child's best interests to be involved in conversations where someone is putting you or your new family down. Rinse and repeat as needed with each future email sticking to the same premise, but getting closer to outright saying "I am taking you to court to seek counselling for our kid".
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