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  • Termination of the relationship

    Posting on behalf of, due to some technical issues with posting....

    Originally posted by Serene
    Discussion

    Termination of the relationship

    CanLII - 2013 ONSC 2445 (CanLII)

    [13]In my view there was a mutual termination of the relationship. However, the respondent (father) should have taken greater steps to rebuild the relationship between him and his daughter. Many parents face similar situations with their teenagers and to simply say "that's it, it's over" is not acceptable. We know that children mature as they age and the attitudes that they exhibit in their teenage years are often no longer present in their twenties. To the respondent's credit however he did continue to make payments until she completed grade twelve at eighteen years of age.

    [14]Considering these principles, I also conclude that the respondent has not met the onus in convincing me that Victoria unilaterally terminated the relationship. As mentioned previously, it was a mutual termination, and in my view, he did not take sufficient steps to attempt to re-establish any type of communication or relationship. Regardless of how frustrating this situation might have been, I conclude that following the November 2009 disagreement, the respondent should have kept the door open by letting things calm down and then making efforts towards reconciliation. In fact, he readily admitted that he did nothing.

    [15]I also conclude that the applicant has not been as helpful as she could have been in re-establishing the relationship between father and daughter since there is no evidence of what steps she took to pacify the situation.
    This case was brought up in another thread recently. While it relates to a father that was being asked to pay for university costs, I will ask that we leave out the financial aspect completely and make an assumption that nothing traumatic took place between father and daughter (nothing did in this case) when answering the questions below when considering the issues that the judge raises highlighted in bold above:

    Note: I've numbered these for ease of reference

    1. •Take sufficient steps to attempt to re-establish any type of communication or relationship

    2. •Kept door open by letting things calm down AND THEN making efforts towards reconciliation

    3. The applicant (mother) should have been helpful in re-establishing the relationship between father and daughter

    4. •The mother should have made efforts to pacify the situation between father and daughter

    So my question is: What do those numbered items above translate to?

    For instance, is #1: Continue to email, text, call the child and extend invitations to spend time with the non-access parent.

    Are any of the numbered items above counseling with the non-access parent and the child?

    And then I want to know if the other parent is encouraging this behaviour from the child (aka alienation) then how do you accomplish any of the above if the non-access parent can't even communicate with the child (i.e. no one answers phone, texts go unanswered and no confirmation if they were even received, etc.).

    Obviously there comes a time when the children's views on access come into play. But this judge makes clear that while the child's views are considered regarding access, that the goal should always be for the child and non-access parent to reconnect AND that is the non-access parent's moral and judicial duty to make concerted effort to pursue the relationship.
    My next question is: For anyone that has been through this, perhaps even with OCL involved, did anyone make any formal recommendations on what the non-access parent should do with the child? (i.e. I recommend counseling between father and daughter, or I recommend that the mother give liberal access to the father per the child's wishes, or I recommend the father attend all figure skating lessons the daughter takes, etc.).

    Again, I'd really like to not discuss situations of abuse or whatever.

    Because that really changes the way forward for the non-access parent and child.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Bumping this in hopes that we can get some discussion going....

    Comment


    • #3
      Hmm sometimes even married parents end up alienated/estranged from their children.

      This seems another situation where the judiciary is imposing how parents should live their lives just because they are divorced. If the parents were together and the child was estranged this would not happen.

      Comment


      • #4
        Ill give you my partners scenario. No court to force visitation or communication since he cant prove interference. Lawyer said its one of the most difficult.

        My partner has been having access issues since the divorce. The ex controlled everything. Things got progressively worse when we started dating. We, and his family members, started to notice a change in the one. There has been a noticeable alienation factor with the older one who seems to repeat a lot of what the ex has said to him about the divorce and finances. The younger one is more quiet and open to seeing/talking to him. Since he started talking to someone about it, he has changed his approach. Much more quiet attempts--emails letting them know he cares and is thinking about them, repeated attempts at calling, attempting visitation where he can. Therapist specializes in alienation and reunification. Kids wont attend therapy with him so he does this to help cope with the situation and change his approach. Theres less fighting and hurtful comments made.

        In the above situation referrencedby blink, 1 & 2 are sort of working with my partner.
        Parents did not want OCL involved when the divorce happened and agreement included a therapy clause and visitation "agreed upon by [mom] and [kids]." Problem was, therapy was difficult to arrange since dad lives in another city and visitation was played with (i.e. Mom suddenly says no visit when he shows up or kids are kept busy so no weekends are free). In the last year visitation has been difficult as older one has a job and younger one "finds it emotionally exhausting to travel" (not her words--mom or older sibling says this to him when he asks kid.)

        Partner doesnt see a benefit to going to court for visitation and learned that fighting or trying to force visits causes bigger issues.

        You ask what the four items mean. 1 & 2 were recommended to my partner by both his therapist and lawyer. 3 & 4 are obvious--mom should make an effort to help re-establish the relationship and support it. Obviously the issue is mom tainting the daughter towards dad which is giant in my partners situation. But how do you enforce those? How do you prove its happening? Depending on age, how does mom force the kid to spend time or talk to dad? And after an amount of time of alienation, how do you do it safely? Partners lawyer told him of a case where the child went through "reprogramming" after alienation and promptly killed himself after returning home.

        The courts can recommend counseling until the cows come home but as long as the alienation or warped views continue, it wont work. If one parent continues to sabotage, it will fail. My partner and his kid are both in therapy to have a healthy relationship with boundaries, but as we witnessed this weekend, just a few comments from mom hijack the entire progress. Hearing the bs come from the kid really ticked us both off since they had been making a bit of progress in re-establishing the relationship. Following all the recommendations in therapy and setting healthy boundaries. Mom planted one seed about dads loyalty and boom, its back to square one. (And yes it was a bullshit comment. I wont repeat what was said for identification purposes.)

        In short, partner recognizes its an uphill battle right now but continues to try. Even in the face of comments like "you only care about me not her" when he tries to respect the older kids job/desire for freedom, "youre only doing this because of her (me)" when he and I work to travel together to save costs, "you want to erase your past with mom" because he doesnt have photos of his ex wife. The list is endless. The big issue this summer is finances. Kid doesnt understand equalization or divorce or splitting of assets so moms attitude of dad stealing everything has been shared with kid making it difficult for dad to talk about anything. Its a common theme the last year. He bought a house and it was only because he stole moms money, a bike, new clothes, shoes, has friends over etc. only possibly because he stole moms money. What teenager says this without influence?. But his therapist tells him to continue setting boundaries. Sure it means when kid cant provoke a fight the convo ends and no communication for days but the therapist keeps telling him that this will eventually change the behaviour and its hopeful that being away at school will help too.

        Comment


        • #5
          I should also mention that when he has tried to discuss it with mom he gets "well its not my fault you have issues with your kids" or "maybe if you had done therapy it would be better" or "i cant control if they want to spend time with you or not" even though all of these are obviously not true and when he calls her on scheduling or sharing info etc. she either plays dumb, says she cant help it if kid goes through her paperwork/email, or hangs up on him.

          Comment

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