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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #1  
Old 01-04-2019, 10:33 PM
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Default Your thoughts on the MeToo Movement

Just wondering what all you posters think about the MeToo movement and if you think it will ever have any impact on Family Law? Currently, I know past behaviour as a parent is considered irrelevant for the most part but I wondered as I sat in the court house the other day and listened to some stories whether it will have an impact in the future? It's been quite a movement that has taken down top ranking officials ...perhaps it may parenting??
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  #2  
Old 01-05-2019, 12:09 AM
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Topic of abuse allegations has been covered extensively on this site.

https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=16809
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Old 01-05-2019, 11:43 PM
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Default Your thoughts on the MeToo Movement

I really hope the time is coming where abuse and violence as they relate to the “best interests of the child” actually gets put on the same level as the maximum contact principle. The family courts defacto move towards the maximum contact, in my opinion, does grave harm to children, not to mention victims, of domestic violence.

That being said I think that the issue of using the term “abuse” needs to be dealt with as soon as possible in the process.

I don’t know the statistics- but I feel anecdotally that the term “domestic violence” and “abuse” gets played far too often falsely in family matter cases.

What I would like to see is where one party accuses the other of perpetrating DV, the courts deal with it on a motion to determine the veracity of the claim.

Waaaaaay too often, motion judges and case conference judges pass the buck and won’t deal with it because the issue must be tried. The outcome of this is often unfair to both types of cases. Where the allegation is false, you have parents- let’s be real- fathers- who are accused and have onerous restrictions placed on their parenting time- little or no access, supervised access where it’s not warranted, etc...on the other spectrum you have real cases where parents are forced to send their children to the other parent where they KNOW they are capable of sometimes unspeakable violence.

From my experience- just three weeks after my daughter’s dad threatened to kill her horrifically and graphically- and me after...- I had to send her to him. Sure his visits were supervised. But really- what’s a 60something old private supervisor going to do if my ex decided to do something insane?

What I think should have happened is that he should’ve had to do a mental health assessment and safety risk assessment. Or in the alternative- we should’ve had to be in front of a judge on a motion to prove the allegations either way. If I was making it up- I should’ve been called out right away.

The other side to your question I think encompasses a very dark side. Domestic violence and specifically intimate partner violence very often goes beyond physical and emotional abuse. Very often there is sexual violence involved. BUT I feel like even if there is a charge of sexual assault in a family matter - unless it’s perpetrated against a minor and not the partner- the family courts basically take the position of “well maybe he did rape/sexually assault you, but we don’t think there’s a chance he would do the same to the kid(s)- so they should get to see him” .....and I challenge anyone to say that someone who commits the crime of sexual assault should be involved as a parent.


I think the solution to both of these issues is to have more integrated family and criminal courts. There are a couple around-but there needs to be more. There needs to be an assessment of fitness to parent where there are serious criminal charges involved. And where there are false allegations there needs to be a move to address those early in the process so the parent’s relationship with the child is not damaged.




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Old 01-05-2019, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Topic of abuse allegations has been covered extensively on this site.



https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=16809


I don’t know that citing and discussing one case that discusses how tricky “abuse” can be is necessarily extensive discussion.


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Old 01-06-2019, 11:01 AM
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I don’t know that citing and discussing one case that discusses how tricky “abuse” can be is necessarily extensive discussion.


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You should learn how CanLII works. It is cited in other cases. Those cases are sub cited. Suffice to say this case law appears in a number of Justice Pazaratz cases that are cited hundreds of times. Feel free to read my other threads with other examples. This is all but one.

All of the cases sited state the same thing you already stated:

Quote:
the term “domestic violence” and “abuse” gets played far too often falsely in family matter cases.
Free free to click on my handle "Tayken" and search for all main thread posts and flip through the various cases I have posted.

Last edited by Tayken; 01-06-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:07 AM
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It is hard to link "me too" to "family law" because they are not the same. This debate will only draw the trolls who are aligned to one side of the argument.
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Old 01-06-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
What I would like to see is where one party accuses the other of perpetrating DV, the courts deal with it on a motion to determine the veracity of the claim.
Would it be a criminal or civil standard?

Would there be any consequences subsequent to a finding that the accusation was false?
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
You should learn how CanLII works.
You click on the hyperlink that says "Cited by 4 documents", right? Thanks for the lesson.
Quote:
It is cited in other cases.
4. All at Superior Court. Not challenged at the appellate level. Treatment in all FOUR cases is neutral. None of those cases say "Hey- look at this amazing case of Tayebi v. Oukachbi".

Quote:
Those cases are sub cited. Suffice to say this case law appears in a number of Justice Pazaratz cases that are cited hundreds of times.
and? Sub-citing is not relied on in law. Precedent is. Positive treatment is.

Look hard enough and you can find a family law case that bolsters your position. In almost any case. It's not hard. Which is why in any area of law- you look for and rely on appellate level cases that confirm ratios. Not mere mentions.

Further the Pazaratz case of Rifai v. Green, does not at all touch Tayebi v. Oukachbi's discussion of the use of the term abuse - in citing the case, Justice Pazaratz is discussing the concern about minimizing the risk of needless disruption at the temporary order stage.

Last edited by iona6656; 01-07-2019 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Janus View Post
Would it be a criminal or civil standard?

Would there be any consequences subsequent to a finding that the accusation was false?
I think that the party seeking the restrictions should have the onus to show that there is a chance of harm on a balance of probabilities. Also- where the issue of safety is canvassed- then the judge would be in the position to ask the necessary questions to determine whether a higher level of precaution is necessary during parenting time.

This is all assuming that the criminal matter has not be completed. To my knowledge- if a charge is withdrawn it's withdrawn very early in the process so that this would be helpful in determining whether there are precautionary measures even needed.

I absolutely think there should be consequences to finding that the accusation is false- but not necessarily monetary, or contempt findings etc. I've read a number of cases where, after the trial, the judge finds one parent's accusations are without merit and sometimes frivolous and vexatious - and it's clear that it affected how they determined custody and access time. I think that's a pretty damning consequence- knowing that if you throw out a false accusation- you're going to get called out on it early and it's going to haunt the rest of your litigation.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:12 AM
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and? Sub-citing is not relied on in law. Precedent is. Positive treatment is.
What do you mean "is not relied on in law"? You are confused as to how case law is used clearly.

The case has a total of 14+ sub-citings when you go two layers down. I didn't bother to go deeper but, it spiders out further. The impact has been large. Lots of judges have read it. It has influenced them.

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Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
Look hard enough and you can find a family law case that bolsters your position.
"your position"? The only strong position I have is on relevance and evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
In almost any case. It's not hard. Which is why in any area of law- you look for and rely on appellate level cases that confirm ratios. Not mere mentions.
Actually, in "all cases" you rely on evidence. Caselaw is not argued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
Further the Pazaratz case of Rifai v. Green, does not at all touch Tayebi v. Oukachbi's discussion of the use of the term abuse - in citing the case, Justice Pazaratz is discussing the concern about minimizing the risk of needless disruption at the temporary order stage.
Needless disruption being a number of things... an example being false allegations of domestic violence. Which as you pointed out is all too common in family law matters.
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