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  #1  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:06 PM
trinton trinton is offline
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Default sticky s7 situation

so I think I'm in a bit of a sticky s7 situation, and wanted to hear what everyone else has to say. order has sole custody to other parent, access to me, and nothing about s7 expenses.

child has been struggling in school and the schools suggested counselling. mom never took that recommendation.

a year later, mom put her in this acedemic program that basically sits children to do workbooks - it is not tutoring. the child is also doing this special ed program at her school as part of the IEP. I've many many times asked for extra time to help child at home.

the child was signed up at the program 1 month before this conversation started.

the conversations went as follows:

Parent A: child is signed up for X program, this is how much it costs, and this is the receipt. (receipt was dated a month prior), the school has her IEP available.

me: I don't have IEP and I don't agree, I can help child at home.

Me: I've checked IEP and I see she is behind in X and Y, I think that tutoring is an excellent way for _child_ to get some extra help

Me I would like to know why I am hearing about this just now and would greatly appreciate it if I could be kept informed of these things well in advance in the future. We need to split the costs as a proportion of our incomes. I’ll need to know what your income is. can I pay them directly?

Me: I think counselling would be beneficial

Parent A: For right now she has the program 3 times a week and she has homework from other programs as well. This should all help her self-esteem, otherwise, counselling will be looked into. I don’t want child to have too many appointments and homework . Right now the payments come from my account.

Me: Thank you for making the appropriate arrangements for our child’s tutoring. I'm going to need a copy of your Notice of Assessment. Also, I would be happy to take child to the appointments when she is with me

In the future I would like to be informed prior to registration. I would be happy to discuss and assist in selecting the appropriate professional. This will eliminate the chance of any conflict between us.

Thank you for your recommendation on how we should approach counselling.

Email for other issues which included: Please send me receipts every month I will make my required payment to you within 20 days. I am agreeing to contribute towards tutoring and nothing else at this point, unless we discuss and agree.

paid for couple of months without reciepts, I stopped getting reciepts, and stopped paying all together. Child was sent with pile of homework from that program on a weekend, and I met with the 3rd party and learned that the child has to be there all year around (including holidays) and that there is homework everyday from that program.

following all of this, we signed agreement that she was to give me reciepts of expenses she was seeking from me. there was no agreement that I would reimburse her.

I suggested counselling, and she agrees it would benefit the child. I don't agree with the activity as it isn't necessary and leads to too much homework

it also lead to this: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...tivites-20876/

did I come off as agreeing to this? paying careful attention that the decision was made a month before I was approached. is it reasonable for me to suggest the program is not helpful and counselling would be better? I have evidence to suggest that the child isn't to keen about the program.

Last edited by trinton; 03-23-2017 at 10:08 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinton View Post
child has been struggling in school and the schools suggested counseling. mom never took that recommendation.
As the other parent (as you have stated) is the "sole custodial parent" then you are stuck. The only option you have is to have a court order the counseling. That is the problem with "sole custody" the other parent is the "sole" decision maker on this.

You are unfortunately, the "opinion parent". Free to share your opinions and have them completely and utterly ignored.

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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
a year later, mom put her in this academic program that basically sits children to do workbooks - it is not tutoring.
Like all academic programs, some work for children and some don't. The only way you are going to know if it is a benefit to your child is to have them participate in the program. To do that successfully you have to have two willing and agreeable parents. It will fail if you are opposed to the program.

Why not let the child try out the program and see if they find success. In 3-4 months if there is no improvement then it is not the right program. But, you won't know unless you try.

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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
the child is also doing this special ed program at her school as part of the IEP. I've many many times asked for extra time to help child at home.
Parents are often the worst teachers of their own children often. Are you qualified as a teacher? (Just pushing back the same argument you are making about the people that operate the program you are so opposed to.)

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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
the child was signed up at the program 1 month before this conversation started.
Again, as a parent the other parent can do this. You are not obligated to take the child while they are residing with you. But, how will it look to a judge if you don't take the child? Did you invest the 3-4 months to see if the program actually helped the child? Or did you dig your heels in right at the beginning?

I would recommend to anyone to participate in the program and see if it produces a positive result. If it doesn't then you have reasonable grounds to oppose it.

Also remember... Judges don't count credits against parents doing positive things. They count credits against parents who create conflict out of things that create conflict. Is your conduct creating negative credits against you? I would hate to read case law that has 20-30 paragraphs about how someone absolutly refused to support an educational program. The judge will not focus on the program's merits. The judge will focus on your conduct and behaviour as a parent regarding the activity.

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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
I met with the 3rd party and learned that the child has to be there all year around (including holidays) and that there is homework everyday from that program.
Really? They have power and control over the child and you as their parent? They would like the child to attend all the time because they make money all the time. But, you don't have to do what they say. Their program isn't manditory nor is the child's attendance court ordered. If you don't want to participate in the program and bring the child or assist them with the extra work that comes from the program. You have every right to not do it.

You either need to:

1. Support the child fully in the program; or
2. Don't support the child in the program at all.

Make a choice. But, be mindful of how a judge may accumulate bad parenting credits against you.

I would recommend option #1 with an agreement to support it for 3-4 months and see if there is any positive benefits for the child. If there is none... Then you have grounds to raise your concerns. But, to flail around like this and create conflict over a program that you truly do not know if it will benefit the child is a bit of a bad thing to do. It won't end out putting you in the positive light.

No judge ever took away custody and access from a parent for putting their children into an enrichment program. They have taken custody and access away from parents who create conflict over putting a child in an enrichment program.

Good Luck!
Tayken


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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
did I come off as agreeing to this?
What are you concerned about? That it will continue forever? That you are going to have to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on the enrichment program? What negative thing are you anxious about? The only thing you need to consider is if the program will negatively impact the child. I can't see how an enrichment program can harm a child.

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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
paying careful attention that the decision was made a month before I was approached. is it reasonable for me to suggest the program is not helpful and counselling would be better? I have evidence to suggest that the child isn't to keen about the program.
I would recommend that the child participate for 3-4 months in the enrichment program and get REAL results. Right now you are operating on assumptions that the program won't help. Also, children are great at expressing they dislike something. Let the child experience it for 3-4 months and let them make the other parent NUTS complaining about the enrichment program.

Some times these things can solve themselves. It is chepaer to spend a few bucks and let things run their course than spend 10's of thousands of legals just to get your way with the other parent.

Last edited by Tayken; 03-24-2017 at 10:44 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-24-2017, 11:19 AM
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Thinking about your situation a different way...

Wouldn't it be better to say to a judge:

Hey, I participated fully in this program for 3-4 months and unfortunately, it didn't have a significant impact on improving our child's situation. We went to the program, did the extra work and our child tried really hard but, it didn't make a significant improvement for our child. Maybe, we, as parents, need to find a better solution that is going to produce more tangible results. The school has recommended counseling and it is something we as parents should seriously consider at this point in time.

What may a judge think: This litigant genuinely wants to help the child. Participated, didn't create conflict and did everything expected of the program. The results don't justify the investment of time and effort by the child and parents as clearly demonstrated through their positive participation. Maybe, another solution that this parent is recommending will have a better and more positive impact on their child?

As opposed to:

Well, your Honour, I never supported this program from the get go. I sent letters and emails, attached as EVIDENCE, that it wouldn't work. I never supported this program. It is not a real program and doesn't even have real teachers! It has this and that about the program that is all bad. There is nothing positive for our child in this program. I believe it will be bad. It cuts into my time with my child. Then they have to do all this extra work that probably won't result in anything positive. The other parent won't listen to me.

What the judge may think: This child had no chance. When one parent vehemently opposes the child being in this enrichment program. What impact did this parent's attitude impact the child's ability to succeed in this program? What impact did their conduct and opposition have on their child? Why wouldn't this parent try it out and see before opposing it? Is this parent just creating conflict for conflict sake? To fight it out with the other parent? Are their concerns really genuine or financial driven? Does the other parent oppose the enrichment program simply because it was recommended by the other parent?

Try to think about it from different angles...
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
You are unfortunately, the "opinion parent". Free to share your opinions and have them completely and utterly ignored.
My oponion was based on a recommendation from a social worker who's spoken to the teachers involved with child. how could it look good on a parent to refuse to put a child with major behavior issues in counselling? or at least try it for 3-4 months? counselling could only benefit the child.

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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Why not let the child try out the program and see if they find success. In 3-4 months if there is no improvement then it is not the right program. But, you won't know unless you try.
The child is in the program for a few months now. I'm opposed to the program. The program is unnecessary and leads to too much homework for a child my childs age.

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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Parents are often the worst teachers of their own children often. Are you qualified as a teacher? (Just pushing back the same argument you are making about the people that operate the program you are so opposed to.)
The program doesn't have any qualified teachers or tutors. There are no lessons, they just toss worksheets in front of the kids. It is not 1-on-1 tutoring. They also send the same worksheets at home to be completed by parents every day for an hour. The same exercises are in books and can even be printed online. Why pay for something you can get and do for free, or at a lower price from bookstores?

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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
But, how will it look to a judge if you don't take the child? Did you invest the 3-4 months to see if the program actually helped the child? Or did you dig your heels in right at the beginning?
Child has been in the program for a few months.

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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
I would recommend to anyone to participate in the program and see if it produces a positive result. If it doesn't then you have reasonable grounds to oppose it.
The child has been in the program for few months and still lacks self esteem and confidence and has behavioral issues. The parent seems to be agreeing to counselling now. This program isn't counselling. The school recommended counselling, not this program.

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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Also remember... Judges don't count credits against parents doing positive things. They count credits against parents who create conflict out of things that create conflict. Is your conduct creating negative credits against you? I would hate to read case law that has 20-30 paragraphs about how someone absolutly refused to support an educational program. The judge will not focus on the program's merits. The judge will focus on your conduct and behaviour as a parent regarding the activity.
I'm not opposed to the tutoring she recieves at school everyday for one hour. I'm opposed to this unncessary "education" program . It's way too much for the child of my child's age. The child needs to have some time ro rest. The activity isn't suited for every child . A report from the school says the child was asking if she even had to go to the program - she doesn't enjoy it and would much rather do fun things and rest on the holidays and evenings. She get's enough work from school already. It's too much for a child my age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Really? They have power and control over the child and you as their parent? They would like the child to attend all the time because they make money all the time. But, you don't have to do what they say. Their program isn't manditory nor is the child's attendance court ordered. If you don't want to participate in the program and bring the child or assist them with the extra work that comes from the program. You have every right to not do it.

You either need to:

1. Support the child fully in the program; or
2. Don't support the child in the program at all.

Make a choice. But, be mindful of how a judge may accumulate bad parenting credits against you.
I'm really not worried about how people perceive me. I know what's best for my child, I know my child, I'm a capable loving and caring parent, I'm well educated, and I'll make decisions that are best for my child. I'm not worried about how people perceive me, people should be worried about how I perceive them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
I would recommend option #1 with an agreement to support it for 3-4 months and see if there is any positive benefits for the child. If there is none... Then you have grounds to raise your concerns. But, to flail around like this and create conflict over a program that you truly do not know if it will benefit the child is a bit of a bad thing to do. It won't end out putting you in the positive light.
That is what has happened Tayken, the child has been in it for a few months, and I'm raising my concerns. I've met with the 3rd party and learned many things by suprise. The parent never had me participate in their orientation before signing the child up. Nothing. Complete surprise and no input from me whatsoever. The program is unnecessary and leads too too much homework. especially with this whole you don't get holidays unless you take the child to the program. The child has a right to rest, relax and recharge on the holidays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
No judge ever took away custody and access from a parent for putting their children into an enrichment program. They have taken custody and access away from parents who create conflict over putting a child in an enrichment program.
The school has however suggested parents do reading and writing with the kid, and never suggested this program. The school suggested counselling. Who's really the one creating conflict here by going against the schools suggestions, enrolling the child into this random "education" program without consulting the other parent, and using that to deny the other parent any extra time with their kid - espcially holidays. What child likes doing homework? What child likes doing homework on holidays? She tries to stick all of the homework on my weekends, doing none of it on her fridays or sundays and expecting me to do it all. She's creating conflict everyway she can with this "Education" program. She's being way too controlling, abusing her powers as a sole custodial parent - thinking that she owns me and she can throw commands at me like i'm a robot. Good way to lose sole custody. I do read stories and do writing with the kid on my time already. I don't need anything from this "education" program.

Few problems with this a) not consulting with me or seeking any input and just tossing the child in the program and tossing me a reciept (complete lack of respect and against co-parenting - to create conflict to oppose joint custody) b) sticking all of the homework into my weekends refusing to do any on fridays and sundays, and expecting me to do all of that
c) taking away holiday access unless I take the child to the program on holidays. The child has stated she would much rather have fun on holidays. What child is going to want to spend their summer in some worthless frenchise business ? as opposed to playing, having fun, relaxing, and having quality time with their father to recharge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
What are you concerned about? That it will continue forever? That you are going to have to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on the enrichment program? What negative thing are you anxious about? The only thing you need to consider is if the program will negatively impact the child. I can't see how an enrichment program can harm a child.
It has already negatively impacted the child. as is obvious, and will likely continue to do so. Yes it is a long term program. Another thing that wasn't mentioned to me. It is not tutoring as she originally stated. Tutoring is temporary and helps with self esteem. This thing doesn't. Too much conflict as a result of making a decision without any input from the other parent. It did especially so this march break, and will continue to do so. It will continue forever and the other parent will use it to punish the child and me. It is harming the child and the child's relationship with her father. The child should be in counselling, not an "education program". Child is already in extra education tutoring at the school.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
I would recommend that the child participate for 3-4 months in the enrichment program and get REAL results. Right now you are operating on assumptions that the program won't help. Also, children are great at expressing they dislike something. Let the child experience it for 3-4 months and let them make the other parent NUTS complaining about the enrichment program.
Child has already been in it for few months and doesn't enjoy it. She would much rather spend that time with me. We can read books, do writing, make shopping lists, etc. Doesn't need to be stooled in a program and have to do an hour of homework for it everyday. everyday. even weekends. the child doesn't enjoy the program.


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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Some times these things can solve themselves. It is chepaer to spend a few bucks and let things run their course than spend 10's of thousands of legals just to get your way with the other parent.
I would rather spend 10's of thousands of legals to do what's best for my kid, as opposed to agreeing to something my child doesn't enjoy, just because of how a judge may precieve it. The child should be in counselling, not this "education" program. As stated, I'm not worried bout how people precieve me, people should be worried about how I precieve them. It's not about the money. It's about what's best for my kid.

I'm open to further comments and feedback. I could always turn around and say to the other parent, fine, will you extend my mid week and weekend access if I agree to take the child to the program?

Last edited by trinton; 03-24-2017 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:06 PM
trinton trinton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Thinking about your situation a different way...

Wouldn't it be better to say to a judge:

Try to think about it from different angles...

That's exactly the position I'm taking though taken, that the program isn't working out. The child has been enrolled in for few months, and mom was open to discuss counselling, I've suggested it to her and she seems to now be agreeing that the child could benefit from counselling. our discussion was that if I didn't feel child would showing improvement in self esteem, that counselling would be discussed, and that is exactly what happened here.

Last edited by trinton; 03-24-2017 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 01:09 PM
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The mother has sole custody and you have access status. The mother is empowered with making decisions regarding the child's education. If you don't agree then you can refuse to pay but I think the mother will continue anyhow.

Mother isn't putting child in anything harmful or dangerous.

If she did not get your prior approval then you don't have to pay for it.

That's about all you can probably do (not pay).

I think you're whipping yourself into a frenzy over something. There will be more important issues to tackle in the future.

I think this is a clear indication that you and your ex are "high-conflict" .... you have to accept that you are not going to agree with all of your ex's decisions.

Just my 2 cents worth
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:18 PM
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The mother has sole custody and you have access status. The mother is empowered with making decisions regarding the child's education. If you don't agree then you can refuse to pay but I think the mother will continue anyhow.
How can it be a decision regarding the child's education if it was never recommended or suggested by the school as part of the child's education plan?
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:18 PM
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I think this is a clear indication that you and your ex are "high-conflict" .... you have to accept that you are not going to agree with all of your ex's decisions.

Just my 2 cents worth
I think it's a clear indication that she is intentionally creating conflict to oppose joint-custody.
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Old 03-24-2017, 07:31 PM
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You don't have joint custody do you?... then she is not obligated to agree with you, or come to an agreement with you, on education, medical etc. unless it is specified in your agreement... at most she probably only has to "inform" you of things. The only time she has to receive your approval would be on section 7 expenses no?

I'm not sure how successful people are at changing current custody to 50/50 when the two people cannot: get along and effectively communicate; treat the other parent and their family with respect; consider the other parent's views as valid...

Perhaps you need to "chill" and back off. You should also recognize that parenting is not a game of perfect and we all make decisions that we regret years later. What matters is that your ex is trying to do what she thinks is best for the child.
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Old 03-24-2017, 07:50 PM
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You don't have joint custody do you?... then she is not obligated to agree with you, or come to an agreement with you, on education, medical etc. unless it is specified in your agreement... at most she probably only has to "inform" you of things. The only time she has to receive your approval would be on section 7 expenses no?
Technically no she doesn't have to agree with me. but she doesn't even inform me of things. she only contacts me when she wants money. This decision she has made is regarding a possible "section 7" expense, one would assume posters are reading the title of the thread.


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I'm not sure how successful people are at changing current custody to 50/50 when the two people cannot: get along and effectively communicate; treat the other parent and their family with respect; consider the other parent's views as valid...
We're able to effectively communicate. She chooses not to and instead chooses to create conflict wherever and whenever possible. Doesn't treat me with respect at all. I am respectful to her at all times. She doesn't care about my views, let alone view them as valid. Otherwise, she would be seeking input from me prior to making decisions.


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Originally Posted by arabian View Post
Perhaps you need to "chill" and back off. You should also recognize that parenting is not a game of perfect and we all make decisions that we regret years later. What matters is that your ex is trying to do what she thinks is best for the child.
My ex isn't trying to do what she thinks is best for the child, if that was what she wanted to do, then she would contact me, discuss her concerns, the schools recommendations, and seek input from me, and then make a decision - not just pull a decisions out of the hat and throw receipts at me a month later - that's not what cooperative parents do.

As you stated, parents aren't perfect and make bad decisions. Her decision unfortunately has turned out to be a bad one.

I didn't oppose it when I was thrown a receipt. I was open to it and even offered to take the child to all of the appointments. after several months, the program didn't have a significant impact on improving our child's situation. and so I figured that maybe we, as parents, need to find a better solution that is going to produce more tangible results. The school has recommended counseling and it is something we are now discussing.

What matters here is that I'm trying to do what I think is best for the child - which is following professionals recommendations, and communicating that with and involving the other parent in that decision.

Last edited by trinton; 03-24-2017 at 08:20 PM.
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