NFP - stalled negotiations

[Straittohell]

Well, that's really the question, isn't it? Is she even entitled? From what I've read, spousal support is not automatic - it has to be negotiated and in some cases awarded by the court.

Since our separation in 2012, I've paid 100% of her expenses - which I fully consider to be spousal support. 1/2 the duration of the marriage would entitle her to one more year of spousal support. I think that once the marital home is sold, things will change, and I will more likely fight hard to impute income and diminish my responsibility to support her fully.

Does she consider that to be spousal support? Does she agree on the separation date? Does she agree that 50/50 is ideal for the kids?

I know that you are trying to do right by your kids, and are trying to compartmentalize things for a reason, but I think you might be making a mistake by not treating the whole thing as one integrated package.

[HammerDad]

You need to do a bit of research. Go on Workopolis and Indeed Jobs, find opportunities for someone with your ex's skill set in your area.

Your stance should then be that, with her skill set, she is capable of earning $X amount (whatever the average rate is in your area based off of X number of listings you can find), and that she should be imputed that amount. Failing that, she should be imputed at full time minimum wage.

The ex doesn't get to not work. They are obligated to also provide financial support for the kids. This isn't just about SS here. You also have to factor in S.7 expenses (extraordinary expenses) for the kids. She needs to have a reasonable income, or you will be on the hook for the majority of it.

And while I appreciate your falling on your sword for your kids, and taking less parenting time than what a convict would be entitled to, you are setting yourself up for a ton of grief going forward. You are allowing status quo to establish and your ex has no incentive to change it. You want 50/50 in the future, but unless there is a material change of circumstances to warrant it, it is unlikely to happen. What you negotiate now will last for a long time. There is no need to play the martyr when it comes to your time with the kids. They need you as much as they need to stay in the marital home and your ex.

Also, you mentioned that you are paying 100% of the ex's expenses. You need to stop. If you don't, the ex has no incentive to make any changes to their lifestyle (ie. get a job), and may drag this out as long as they can. You also say you consider this to be SS, but know that it is also possible to be deemed a gift than SS and you could still be hit with arrears. You need to start paying SS based off of what you believe fair (read - imputing her with an income of at least min-wage) and you need to label it is as SS. State that it is interim until you either a) negotiate another amount or b) the court orders another amount.

Yeah, she will likely through in your face how you are hurting the kids. But you aren't. Her not getting a job and supporting both herself and the kids is hurting the kids. The kids are her only leverage and/or weapon. She will likely use it to the fullest extent. But you need to be able to live and provide a place for them now so you can increase your ridiculously small parenting time to something more than a criminal would get.

[FightingForFamily]

Well, that's really the question, isn't it? Is she even entitled? From what I've read, spousal support is not automatic - it has to be negotiated and in some cases awarded by the court.

Since our separation in 2012, I've paid 100% of her expenses - which I fully consider to be spousal support. 1/2 the duration of the marriage would entitle her to one more year of spousal support. I think that once the marital home is sold, things will change, and I will more likely fight hard to impute income and diminish my responsibility to support her fully.

You might consider it SS but unless she does, it might not be relevant at all and you could be paying for another several years. Did you speak to a lawyer? I don't believe any lawyer would suggest you keep paying for your ex without something in exchange.

You've already been supporting her fully so it's obvious that you have the means and she has the need so it will likely continue.

Just so you know, SS is fully tax deductible as long as it is document as such. You could have saved yourself thousands by signing a temporary/interim SS agreement if she is going to get SS regardless.

[natty2013]

You need to do a bit of research. Go on Workopolis and Indeed Jobs, find opportunities for someone with your ex's skill set in your area.

Your stance should then be that, with her skill set, she is capable of earning $X amount (whatever the average rate is in your area based off of X number of listings you can find), and that she should be imputed that amount. Failing that, she should be imputed at full time minimum wage.

The ex doesn't get to not work. They are obligated to also provide financial support for the kids. This isn't just about SS here. You also have to factor in S.7 expenses (extraordinary expenses) for the kids. She needs to have a reasonable income, or you will be on the hook for the majority of it.

And while I appreciate your falling on your sword for your kids, and taking less parenting time than what a convict would be entitled to, you are setting yourself up for a ton of grief going forward. You are allowing status quo to establish and your ex has no incentive to change it. You want 50/50 in the future, but unless there is a material change of circumstances to warrant it, it is unlikely to happen. What you negotiate now will last for a long time. There is no need to play the martyr when it comes to your time with the kids. They need you as much as they need to stay in the marital home and your ex.

Also, you mentioned that you are paying 100% of the ex's expenses. You need to stop. If you don't, the ex has no incentive to make any changes to their lifestyle (ie. get a job), and may drag this out as long as they can. You also say you consider this to be SS, but know that it is also possible to be deemed a gift than SS and you could still be hit with arrears. You need to start paying SS based off of what you believe fair (read - imputing her with an income of at least min-wage) and you need to label it is as SS. State that it is interim until you either a) negotiate another amount or b) the court orders another amount.

Yeah, she will likely through in your face how you are hurting the kids. But you aren't. Her not getting a job and supporting both herself and the kids is hurting the kids. The kids are her only leverage and/or weapon. She will likely use it to the fullest extent. But you need to be able to live and provide a place for them now so you can increase your ridiculously small parenting time to something more than a criminal would get.

Thanks again for the heads-up and the information. I was also thinking about the extraordinary expenses, and that will definitely have to be factored into the payments when we pass the interim stage.

Starting Nov 1st, I have started limiting the amount paid to the table amount for her quoted income of $7500. That caused quite a stir, but it's in place now and has been made clear that it's interim until the house is sold.

Also, in terms of the kids, I agree... I'm making living arrangements for them so that starting in the very near future, I'm going to implement weekend visits to start and work up to longer term. Getting care for them on my long workdays is the challenge right now, but I agree that getting that in place is important. Thanks for confirming that.

[natty2013]

You might consider it SS but unless she does, it might not be relevant at all and you could be paying for another several years. Did you speak to a lawyer? I don't believe any lawyer would suggest you keep paying for your ex without something in exchange.

You've already been supporting her fully so it's obvious that you have the means and she has the need so it will likely continue.

Just so you know, SS is fully tax deductible as long as it is document as such. You could have saved yourself thousands by signing a temporary/interim SS agreement if she is going to get SS regardless.

Yes.. the lawyers are working on that right now. I started limiting SS as of Nov 1st to the table amounts (midrange), so it's caused quite a stir, but I know it's the correct path.

[natty2013]

As long as you realize nothing in divorce is temporary in fsmily law and that judges tend not to want to change a childs arrangement unless there has been a big change.

If you make more than her IT will be ordered almost for sure.
-her having full custody is a reason she would get even more SS
-you will pay for AT least half the marriage.

Have you checked mysupportcalculator.ca ?

I've used the calculator, and also have a lawyer who agrees with the current amount I'm paying now (starting Nov 1st, table amount only).

[Links17]

Yes.. the lawyers are working on that right now. I started limiting SS as of Nov 1st to the table amounts (midrange), so it's caused quite a stir, but I know it's the correct path.

You need to LEGALLY challenge the custody arrangement. Anytime before that can be viewed as accepting the status quo. I guess you left the house?

[FightingForFamily]

You accepted an arbitrary amount of income for her at $7500? Without documentation, proof of income, or a copy of her income tax returns? Why would you pick that number instead of minimum wage, if you were doing it unilaterally anyways?

And again, if you don't have an SS agreement that you can register with CRA you can't claim these thousands of dollars on your taxes to save you hundreds of dollars each month.

You don't even have weekends visits and you've been separated for over 2 years? What have you been doing !?

[natty2013]

Thanks for the advice from those who responded to the original questions (and related responses). I see my next options and have a better idea where court proceedings would progress.

Cheers.