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  • NFP - stalled negotiations

    My wife and I have both obtained lawyers and are trying to settle out of court. I owe her about a $20000 NFP payment from the calculations so far.

    She has custody of the kids full time currently, and both are in school full time. She is claiming that she can't earn more than $7500 per year, which puts my SSAG child+spousal support payment (mid-range) at a place where I won't be able to pay my own bills (and by this I mean rent + utilities + transportation to work and $150 per month for food - that's it - not a penny extra).

    Also, as part of her position, she has demanded that I obtain a personal loan to pay her any amount owed to her.

    A couple of questions to help determine my next best course of action:

    1. Would court likely impute income of a more reasonable amount (like $10000-$20000)? This would lower the spousal support amount significantly.

    2. Would court likely force me to obtain a personal loan (when it's clear that based on current amounts I can't even hope to obtain it)?

    3. Would court force me to pay her legal fees when it would appear that she is unwilling to negotiate any reasonable settlement?

    Any suggestions or advice for this situation? We seem to be at a stalemate where I simply cannot afford any more payments of that capacity, and she is unwilling to go to work for any significant amount of income.

  • #2
    Originally posted by natty2013 View Post
    My wife and I have both obtained lawyers and are trying to settle out of court. I owe her about a $20000 NFP payment from the calculations so far...
    Where does this $20,000 figure come from? What asset/debt is being equalized here, to account for that? Is this including the house, or not?

    Originally posted by natty2013 View Post
    ...She is claiming that she can't earn more than $7500 per year...
    Of course she is. Where does that figure even come from?

    Originally posted by natty2013 View Post
    1. Would court likely impute income of a more reasonable amount (like $10000-$20000)? This would lower the spousal support amount significantly.
    You can ask for a full-time, minimum wage income to be imputed. That would most likely be reasonable. What is her employment history, or what are her education levels/skills? I'm curious as to how she came up with a $7500 annual income figure?

    Where does your lawyer stand on this? Has your lawyer already suggested looking to impute an income?

    Comment


    • #3
      - $20000 is the NFP difference based on pension/house/assets.
      - $7500 comes from the air, as far as I can see.
      - College education, full time work before we were married (in 2006).
      - Lawyer has made suggestions that imputing income would possibly be reasonable, but he's been trying to stay out of court because of my financial limitations currently.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wait... "from the air"... is not very descriptive... it's based on her income during marriage when she was at home, mostly unemployed and taking care of kids. Previous to children, she earned about $43000/year.

        Comment


        • #5
          An income of $7500 is less than full time minimum wage. You say the children are in school full time, why is your ex unable to work full time? Is there some sort of disability involved?

          I would argue that the ex is at least capable of getting a full time McJob, which puts their income at about $22000 ($11/hour at 2000 per year). Barring some sort of disability on the part of the ex, that is the bear minimum I would argue that they are capable of earning, and seek to impute that amount to them.

          Also, why does the ex have the kids fulltime? Are you not able to get them more often?

          Comment


          • #6
            Ah, so she still wants to be able to spend most of her time at home doing fuzzy lovey domestic stuff, and work a few part time hours for mad money, and expects you to foot the bill for it. Of course, the fact that she has full-time custody of the kids only enables that expectation.

            Good luck in getting her to accept that divorce changes everything.

            Comment


            • #7
              The court will easily leave you without enough money for rrent etc... It is the MO. They dont care about you as long as you pay.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                An income of $7500 is less than full time minimum wage. You say the children are in school full time, why is your ex unable to work full time? Is there some sort of disability involved?

                I would argue that the ex is at least capable of getting a full time McJob, which puts their income at about $22000 ($11/hour at 2000 per year). Barring some sort of disability on the part of the ex, that is the bear minimum I would argue that they are capable of earning, and seek to impute that amount to them.

                Also, why does the ex have the kids fulltime? Are you not able to get them more often?
                There is no disability, or anything else stopping her from working - just her own motivation as far as I can see. She earned $11000 at home a few years ago, as well (doing bookkeeping work) when both kids were at home, so I don't see any reason why it won't work. Just wanted to put it out there so I could get some opinions from people who've been through it before.

                She has the kids full time, because she is still in the marital home where they were born (young children), and I didn't want to upset the "status quo" so far. I'm making arrangements to start having them stay over regularly (I work early/late hours somewhat often) - currently every second friday night, and then seeing them during the evenings a couple times per week. Eventually, I would like to lead it up to 50% with each of us.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by natty2013 View Post
                  There is no disability, or anything else stopping her from working - just her own motivation as far as I can see. She earned $11000 at home a few years ago, as well (doing bookkeeping work) when both kids were at home, so I don't see any reason why it won't work. Just wanted to put it out there so I could get some opinions from people who've been through it before.

                  She has the kids full time, because she is still in the marital home where they were born (young children), and I didn't want to upset the "status quo" so far. I'm making arrangements to start having them stay over regularly (I work early/late hours somewhat often) - currently every second friday night, and then seeing them during the evenings a couple times per week. Eventually, I would like to lead it up to 50% with each of us.
                  By not exercising 50% now, you are endangering getting it later.

                  Read up on various threads from those who have learned the hard way.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Straittohell View Post
                    By not exercising 50% now, you are endangering getting it later.

                    Read up on various threads from those who have learned the hard way.
                    Well, that's not my concern right now. I understand the potential implications. Right now they are comfortable and safe, and that's more important to me than the financial impact it will have on me.

                    Right now, NFP and Spousal support is highest on my list.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      NFP and spousal support are simple math, you have all the numbers, you either have to change something else or accept your lot.

                      I took the dive and paid the SS for the 1/2 the duration of the marriage. During this time I was essentially homeless. I borrowed a 17 year old car from my uncle for a winter, lived in other people's basements, stayed with family and my girlfriend. I lived out of my backpack carrying toiletries and spare clothing. The only thing I had was my (good paying) job, I lost everything else.

                      I stuck it out for 3 years, SS ended, and now I am renting a proper townhouse with my girlfriend, have a slightly better car, and am moving on with my life.

                      I don't suggest going the way I did, but I managed it.

                      Why is she entitled to SS at all?

                      And if your kids staying with their mom is OK with you, you have to understand the price tag that comes with it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by natty2013 View Post
                        Well, that's not my concern right now. I understand the potential implications. Right now they are comfortable and safe, and that's more important to me than the financial impact it will have on me.

                        Right now, NFP and Spousal support is highest on my list.
                        I'm not talking about financial impact, I'm talking about the relationship with your children.

                        You're putting your kids first, and that is admirable, but when the time comes for you to want 50%, is your ex going to put the kids first and let it happen, or is she going to be blinded by the what the loss of child support $$$ will do, and then insist on you being stuck as an EOW dad?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Straittohell View Post
                          I'm not talking about financial impact, I'm talking about the relationship with your children.

                          You're putting your kids first, and that is admirable, but when the time comes for you to want 50%, is your ex going to put the kids first and let it happen, or is she going to be blinded by the what the loss of child support $$$ will do, and then insist on you being stuck as an EOW dad?
                          I understand what you are saying, and agree with your viewpoint, that's why I'm making some living arrangement changes at my apartment. Thanks very much for your advice and concern.

                          I'm just trying to compartmentalize my situation so I can deal with it in chunks. This chunk (post) is just to do with NFP and finances.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FightingForFamily View Post
                            NFP and spousal support are simple math, you have all the numbers, you either have to change something else or accept your lot.

                            I took the dive and paid the SS for the 1/2 the duration of the marriage. During this time I was essentially homeless. I borrowed a 17 year old car from my uncle for a winter, lived in other people's basements, stayed with family and my girlfriend. I lived out of my backpack carrying toiletries and spare clothing. The only thing I had was my (good paying) job, I lost everything else.

                            I stuck it out for 3 years, SS ended, and now I am renting a proper townhouse with my girlfriend, have a slightly better car, and am moving on with my life.

                            I don't suggest going the way I did, but I managed it.

                            Why is she entitled to SS at all?

                            And if your kids staying with their mom is OK with you, you have to understand the price tag that comes with it.
                            Well, that's really the question, isn't it? Is she even entitled? From what I've read, spousal support is not automatic - it has to be negotiated and in some cases awarded by the court.

                            Since our separation in 2012, I've paid 100% of her expenses - which I fully consider to be spousal support. 1/2 the duration of the marriage would entitle her to one more year of spousal support. I think that once the marital home is sold, things will change, and I will more likely fight hard to impute income and diminish my responsibility to support her fully.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As long as you realize nothing in divorce is temporary in fsmily law and that judges tend not to want to change a childs arrangement unless there has been a big change.

                              If you make more than her IT will be ordered almost for sure.
                              -her having full custody is a reason she would get even more SS
                              -you will pay for AT least half the marriage.

                              Have you checked mysupportcalculator.ca ?

                              Comment

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