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  • Strange CS request

    Hi. I am new to this site and it contains a LOT of great information. However I have failed to find an answer to this sotuation.

    My ex and I are in the process of sending offers back and forth to settle the custody of our child. We attended a CC and the only thing that was settled was an order for CS.

    She now says in her offer that if I give up my rightful claim to shared-parenting and settle for a less frequent access schedule that she will sign, and make part of our agreement that she will not ask for child-support. Can she do this? Would a judge allow this?

    The FRO has probably already been notified to start garnishing my wages so I assume for this to happen we would we have to sign and agreement to remove them from the process. I personally think she's trying to pull a a fast one but my opinion may be jaded.

    I don't mind paying CS at all but I think that the non-cutodial parent should be credited for the time that they have their child and not have to get 40% of access time (never happens) to be able to get credit in support payments. I beleive she is saying this to "sweeten the deal" so I will agree and then she will just apply for support at a later time.

    If she signs an agreement (and it's made an Order) to forgo support can she revoke it later? BTW she makes 25% more annually than I do. She has a history of not living up to her word (lying) and false allegations to further her agenda so it doesn't bode well that she is being genuine. Am I being hoodwinked?

    Any words of wisdom or advice would be apperciated.

  • #2
    trust your instincts. She always has the opportunity to apply for CS later. A judge would never let this through. A child has a right to CS.

    How would your child feel later if he/she found out you chose to spend less time with them so you wouldn't have to support them. What are your prioirities here?

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    • #3
      Thanks for the reply. I know that I should trust my instincts. Her "reasoning" that the child is "too young" to be away from the mother for an extended period of time. This agreement would be temporary until the child starts grade-school at which time we would agree to revisit it.

      My priorities are definitely for my child but knowing how "biased" the court system is what realistic chance do I have to get "shared-parenting"? As I said in my first post I have no probelm paying support but the Payor doesn't get ANY credit unless they have the child AT LEAST 40% of the time which is really unfair.

      So then you're saying basically anything she agrees to in writing and is made an Order she can renege on? That doesn't instill too much confidence in me when it comes to trying to bargain with my ex and keep this out of the court-system. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

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      • #4
        no, only when it applies to CS. Both parents must contribute financially to the child. If you have shared parenting, then you only pay the difference in what each of you would pay with the other being the CP. Is there a big difference there? You would need to have the child at least 40% of the time for that to apply though.

        It is possible for you both to agree that you can pay LESS CS, but you would have to have strong reasons for you to pay much less than the guidelines. If she is offering to reduce your CS obligations if you agree to spend less time with your child that is NOT right. Sounds a little like blackmail. Have you asked her why she is offering you this?

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        • #5
          No I haven't asked her but I have a pretty good idea why.

          She makes about 20-25% more than me so i doubt it would be a huge amount in monthly CS.

          I will definitely ask her. There's something fishy about this proposal and I should listen to my "spidey-senses".

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TruthSeeker View Post
            Her "reasoning" that the child is "too young" to be away from the mother for an extended period of time.
            Unless she is still breast feeding, that thinking in my view is either confusing Mom's interests with the child's, or it is a strategic attempt at justifying a selfish need. Either way, it's WRONG.

            That "tender years" doctrine is bullshit and has been recognized as such by the courts for a long time. Don't get hoodwinked on that. My son was not quite 4 and my daughter 19 months when my ex moved out over 3 and 1/2 years ago. We're all making out just fine thank you.

            In a shared parenting arrangement, the child is not away from either parent for any extended time. A few days, or even week about arrangements are not too long.

            If you really want your kids half the time, argue for it. She will then owe you CS because she makes more than you. But good luck getting it now that a status quo has evolved where you are paying CS.

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            • #7
              She lied numerous times and used very questionable means to get this "status-quo" arrangement. Stupidly, I felt sorry for her predicament and let it happen. If I can convince a judge of this will that make him/her see that I was coerced and manipulated into it?

              Her needs supercede everyone elses needs and that of the child's and yes she is very selfish when it comes to children. She had done the exact same thing to her previous ex. If I presented affadavit evidence from her ex outlining her manipulative and devious M.O was almost identical in both cases would this help my in a motion for custody? She is very crafty and it really irks me that she will get away with this once again. I fear she is metally ill as well because as far as I'm concerned only someone with psychological issues would do something like this to alienate the fathers of the children.

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              • #8
                How old is the child? The whole "too young" argument is a crock of sh!t; is she trying to tell you that there is a certain age a child has to reach before it can develop a meaningful relationship, or spend extended periods of time, with both parents? My little guy is only 18 months old right now and he gets by just fine when he's not with his Mom overnight. He's happy, he knows who Mommy and Daddy are and no matter which parent he's with, he's always excited to see the other one when we exchange him. If she's breastfeeding, that may pose a small problem from a courtroom standpoint.

                What is your current access schedule like? Do you have the child 40% of the time as it is? If so, a precedent has already been set and you would be wise to not let it go...it's much harder to get things later...especially after a routine has been established.

                I pay a lot of money in CS every month and I would not give up any time with my son to avoid doing so. You can't put a price on having your child around you half the time and this sounds like she simply doesn't want to inconvenience herself by having to work with you a little bit.

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                • #9
                  Sorry, one other thing. As far as I know, no judge is going to make an order that you don't have to pay Child Support...you would both have to formally withdraw from the FRO. Even then, I would be very leery of this - last thing you'd want is to have to spend money on a lawyer if, several years down the road, she seeks arrears or something. The whole thing kinda smells funny....

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                  • #10
                    The child is 2 1/2 yrs old. My current "access" is not a lot. About 17 hrs a week. She's basically holding him ransom.

                    I got myself into this by being too trusting and believing her. Now that I know she was lying to get to this point it has made me want justice even more, not for me but for my son as he's being alienated from his paternal family.

                    She's been through the process before and she really knows how to play the "game". I need a good lawyer! The one I had was horrible and helped got me into this mess. Now I need a lawyer who can get me out of it because I doubt she will ever come to terms without court.

                    I believe she's just stalling for more time pretending to want to bargain. As I've said, she's devious beyond anything I've ever seen. She's a PROFESSIONAL liar. There's really no other way I can sum her up.

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                    • #11
                      NoahsDaddy, you mean a judge won't sign an order that provides for the support of the child. In this case a shared parenting arrangement will result in Mom owing Dad CS because she makes more money!!

                      BTW dude, you just had two Dads post in here inside of an hour and BOTH of them had their infant/toddler children with them overnight equally with Mom and it's worked out fine (and two years after separation and an OCL investigation I got sole custody, so the kids are now primarily with me).

                      That bullshit about young children needing to be with Mom is just that - BULLSHIT! It's used to con Dads into an arrangement that evolves into a status quo that won't be changed later. It offends me as a parent and father that people try and use that crappy argument to advance their own selfish interests. Shoot it down!
                      Last edited by dadtotheend; 12-02-2009, 04:10 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks for the comments dadtotheend. It gives me more confidence knowing that these prepostrous arguments women use in court about them being the only ones capable of raising a child are finally being brought to light as being a red-herring or a crock of sh*t as you more accurately stated.

                        Although statistically women do win the majority of the cases, from what you've told me I truly hope things are starting to turn around and justice is being served up with more frequency in the Famil Law Courts. I am very glad to hear things worked out for you after over 2 yrs of seperation. That speaks volumes!

                        As far as the OCL goes I have heard horror stories about them and they take many months to even begin to look at your case. I am not prepared to wait many months to be able to have more access and eventually shared custody of my child. I must litigate and for that I need a decent lawyer who has the guts to litigate and not bow down to the judges. I find a lot of lawyers today want to do things the "prescribed", "non-confrontational" way and just want to make the money but not do any of the work involved in fighting for their client. Does anyone know of a good lawyer in the Ottawa area??

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                        • #13
                          3rd dad here who cared for infants. My ex worked shift work and after maternity leave she cared for them days, I cared for them nights, overnights and weekends.

                          0-12 months infants sleep most of the time and as long as they aren't being breastfed there is no reason they need mom, they don't even know if she's in the room. Even when couples are together dad should be caring for baby regularly to give mom a break, meaning doing everything, feeding, changing, bathing, playing, rocking, putting to sleep, at one time or another.

                          1 year and up both my kids had no preference between their mom and me, and if they were sick or fell down and were crying they usually asked for me not her.

                          We split when my youngest was 3 and I've had him (and my 12 year old) 50% for almost 3 years now. We use a 2 day rotation which has worked well for him when younger because he really did miss us both if he was away longer. Now at 5 he would be comfortable with a 3 or 4 day rotation if necessary, but he is also fine with 2 still.

                          Truthseeker, you need an experienced divorce and custody lawyer and you need to get into court ASAP to ask for an emergency motion for regular access before it goes on too long, status quo will kill your chances for 50/50. Don't let this go on another day.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Your problem is that a status quo may already have materialized. How long has it been that you are getting 17 hrs a week? That's lower than the lowest a court would order in any event, so it's not going to be reduced from where it is now.

                            Every other weekend and one evening a week (even if that evening was a three hour visit instead of an overnight) is the least that a court would order and that averages out to at least 25 hours a week, so your child is getting screwed out of time with you even as it is.

                            You need to sell this on the basis that your child needs you both equally and stay the hell away from trashing your ex. Don't dwell on how she lied to get the current arrangement. It is what it is, how it got there is a non-starter. Judges don't want to listen to a bunch of trash talking about the other spouse. They've had it up to here with that garbage and it will operate against you if you try it. It's not fair how she stickhandled that, but that can't be the thrust of your argument.

                            Instead focus on being child-centred (tip #1 - notice how I said that your kid is getting screwed by not having enough time with you, instead of saying that you're getting screwed? - that's being child centred) and developing a parenting plan that is best for the child. Search "parenting plans" and read about them if you haven't already.

                            Ensure that your home is set up to accomodate your child with a nice, cosy bedroom and a kid friendly environment in which your child will feel safe and emotionally healthy. You probably have already done that. Are you living close to your ex? If not, you should be. That is a compelling factor as it facilitates school involvement and roots the child into one neigbhourhood. Show the court that you are willing to put your child first by agreeing that you and Mom should live close together, for your son's sake (i.e. child centered). BTW, don't tell the court that you intend to do it. Do it and then tell the court.

                            One of the challenges my kids have to deal with is that my ex lives one hour up the highway. Now that our kids are school age, they are missing out on some birthday parties and their extra-curricular involvement is being hampered because Mom lives far away and that can't/won't bring them to their T-Ball etc. Both kids can't realistically enroll in hockey because they will miss too much due to time/distance issues. This will be an issue for you in the not too distant future. Make sure you and Mom live close together. That will be very important for your child once he starts school.

                            Get involved in your child's life outside the home. He is at an age where socialization is becoming an issue. Find playgroups in the area and take him to them. Suggest to Mom that he be enrolled him in a co-operative playschool where the parents do duty days and get involved in sharing the duty days with Mom. Or suggest some other outside the home activity where both parents can share the responsibility of doing drop offs/pick ups and/or being there with him at the activity. Get to know the staff at these places and make sure you get involved, even if its a drop in centre, or whatever. Be seen in the community spending time with your child. I'm not just saying this for appearances, as you sound like you're that type of person anyway. Believe me, people will notice and especially so because your Dad.

                            Don't be afraid of the OCL. They are your best ally right now, as judges will not upset status quos. Don't be fooled into thinking that the best lawyer in town is going to be effective. Make no mistake, most of the work needs to be done by you, the lawyer just guides you down the trail, stopping frequently to drink at the watering hole that is your wallet. This is about your parenting abilities and the judge cannot be in a position to evaluate that in a half hour conference or motion. They like to delegate the responsibility to the OCL, as the OCL will do a thorough investigation into the matter.

                            I'm not going to sugarcoat it - the OCL is an intrusion into your life, the process is lengthy and its incredibly stressful wondering what the case worker is thinking and being under their scrutiny. But if you are a caring, involved child centred parent they are going notice that and it will operate in your favour. The OCL will recommend joint custody and shared parenting if you are involved in your little guy's life in a meaningful way and if there is a degree of cooperation between you and your ex. If your ex is lying about things, or she is just interested in squeezing you for CS, there is a reasonable chance the OCL will see through that.

                            Finally, consider turning the tables on your ex and offering to waive CS for her if you get inside the 60/40 shared parenting arrangement. If she's making more money than you, then she would owe you CS. Show her that you can be a nice guy too and that you too are willing to let go of your financial rights for the sake of your child, because you are child centred, right dude? What's good for the goose...

                            Who knows, maybe the threat of an OCL investigation knowing that you are immersed in your child's life might be enough to encourage your ex to agree and settle the matter quickly and you might avoid the OCL. But right now, I would be positioning myself as described above (not just for appearances, but because you truly want what's best for your kid) and I would seriously consider asking for an OCL investigation.
                            Last edited by dadtotheend; 12-02-2009, 10:26 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TruthSeeker View Post
                              ...arguments women use in court about them being the only ones capable of raising a child are finally being brought to light as being a red-herring or a crock of sh*t as you more accurately stated.
                              Actually it was NoahsDaddy that said crock of sh*t , but I also emphatically indulged in a little cursing as well, which felt good, I don't mind saying.

                              Originally posted by TruthSeeker View Post
                              Although statistically women do win the majority of the cases, from what you've told me I truly hope things are starting to turn around and justice is being served up with more frequency in the Family Law Courts.
                              The reason that Mom's get custody in 80% of the cases is not so much because of gender bias (although there still is an element of that), it's simply because that it is still the case that Mom's are by far and away still the primary caregivers in our society. Go check the drop off and pick up crowds in your local kindergarten classes. Most of the parents are Mom's. But that's changing and that's good for everyone. Since my eldest was in playschool 5 years ago, I have noticed an increase in the number of Dad's that are doing the caregiving for the little ones.
                              Last edited by dadtotheend; 12-02-2009, 10:30 PM.

                              Comment

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