What If You Cannot Afford To Pay The Amount FRO Is Obligated To Enforce?

[#1StepMom]

What happens when you cannot afford to pay the amount of child support that FRO has on file... and you are awaiting your court date for a re-determination of support?

What are the payor's rights and options?

What are FRO's obligations?

Any help/info is grately appreciated.

[frustrated11]

arrears will accumulate
inform fro with a copy of your motion...
if they send you a notice to suspend drivers licence you have to have a refraining motion against them
advise them after every case conference of what is happening
get copies of any endorsements and fax them to the fro for their files

[frustrated11]

also the reps on the phone can be quite helpful,

[Mark1968]

Actually, there is nothing you can do. Until the order is changed and they begin enforcing the new order, which can take weeks if not months, you're stuck paying what you can't afford to pay or accumulating arrears.

I just called FRO today because I was laid off and I wanted to find out if I should pay the support myself or wait until it was taken out of my EI cheque. They told me it would be taken out. I asked how I prevent arrears from accumulating since it takes a long time for FRO to update any new information and they told me if I feel uncertain I can pay it in the meantime. I asked, will I get it back or have an overpayment once the EI garnishment is enforced, the anwser was no.

On top of that, being laid off means my income is cut by more than 70%, I have a second family to support and in order to have my CS reduced I must go back to court, pay for a lawyer and possibly have a two or three year delay until my wage loss is acknowleged...if at all. My ex has legal aid and the last trial we had she delayed for two years until I switched lawyers, my new one was aggressive enough to get it done in 6 months but it also cost me thousands of dollars more.

If my income goes up, my support does so automatically.

At the end of my call to FRO I was told I am about $300 and change in arrears. I asked, how is that possible? My wages are garnished every pay cheque, FRO made a mistake and garnished half my take home pay for several pay cheques this year and then they garnished an extra $100 on top of my actual amount for another few pay cheques, so how can I be in arrears? The agent told me she does not have the time to go over all my payments from January and she will send me a statement of account. I asked, "what do you mean, I know I've been paying, the money is garnished from my pay cheque, you receive it and are therefore accountable for it and you won't tell me how it's possible for me to be in arrears?". And the agent said yes, she doesn't have the time...she told me it's my job to find the discrepency by comparing my pay cheque deductions against the statement she is going to send me. How is that even possible? Given they actually garnished about 2500 too much this year how can I possibly be in arrears and why should I be responsible for proving I paid?

I can understand if I made the payments myself, but they are garnished at FRO's request, so they should be resposible for proving these matters.

I'm so angry. FRO is unhelpful and very slow to enforce, when they made the mistake and started taking half my pay it took three letters from my lawyers, numerous phone calls and letters from me and about 3 months for them to correct the error...only to make another one and tack on an 100 per month to my payments.

I'm accumulating evidence since I plan on filing a complaint with the ombudsman regarding their behaviour, as everyone who has had problems with them should.

[#1StepMom]

I'm sorry to hear what you're going through Mark, and believe me, I understand fully. My husband is in the same situation (also having lost his job, having a reduced income, and still being told he has to pay an amount that he cannot afford to pay, despite having attempted to come to agreements with the recipient, and failing that, having scheduled yet another court date).

FRO is ridiculous. If we could actually "gather evidence" on them, and file a complaint, I'd be thrilled, but you know how they are... they give you misleading or contradicting information on the phone (after they leave you on hold for upwards of an hour) and claim it's not their responsibility to send you anything in writing! (There is an actual statement on their website that says: "Keep records of the support payments that you make. The FRO does not issue year-end statements." - So what happens when your records don't match what they tell you on the phone, but refuse to show to you on paper?)

I wish you all the best. And I do hope you get your case with them resolved.

[got2bkid]

There was a story about this on Glenn Sacks web-site recently, below is an excerpt of the story, I thought I'd cut and paste since it is very well explained and written:

"John Nelson went from six-figure-earning software exectutive to unemployed overnight. But his $2,200 child support payment didn't change that quickly. It took a year for him to get a hearing, and when he finally did, the judge increased his obligation. By that time he had gotten a job as a science teacher, but the newly-upped child support obligation meant that he took home a grand total of $58 per week. Read about it here (WFTV, 11/9/09).

The judge, Julian Piggotte's attitude was you "can afford it; figure it out." Then she discovered that she had a conflict of interest in Nelson's case and withdrew.

His ex-wife sees the situation this way:

"Our lives go on. The kids still have lunches, they still go to school, and they still have field trips."

That's true. And if she and John were still together, the kids would need to be fed and go to school, but their standard of living would drop along with that of their parents. That's what happens when parents lose their jobs - parents and children live on less. They all manage the best they can. It's one of the sometimes-harsh realities of daily life.

Only if the parents are divorced does the concept arise that the children's lives must in no way change due to a parent's loss of income. It's as if Judge Piggotte lives in a fantasy world in which children must and do remain unaffected when their father loses his job. Indeed, it's the same fantasy world in which an adult can live on $58 per week.

Nelson's case is like countless others these days. Some 80% of job losses have been suffered by men in the last year or so. A lot of those guys are fathers, some of them divorced. That means they have to file for a modification of their support orders.

It's another strange aspect of the whole matter that, if Nelson's wife had wanted a temporary restraining order against him, she could have gotten a hearing and had an order issued in a matter of hours. But when he loses his job and needs to reduce his child support to reflect what he can actually pay, it takes over a year."

[#1StepMom]

Thanks everyone, and thanks Got2bkid for posting the excerpt. (Can you post the link to it as well, please?)

My husband called FRO and explained his situation - that lost the job on which his child support is based back in August, and since then hasn't been able to afford to pay the amount they have on file. He told them of the upcoming court date, etc., and asked what his options are. FRO told him to "pay what you can" to show good faith.

So until a new order is issued, arrears will continue to accumulate in the current amount, and the garnishee summons with Revenue Canada will remain. I just wonder how quickly FRO will change the amount and rectify their records when a new support order is issued. I really don't want our money to get "lost" again.

[independentgal]

My first instinct is that your partner should NOT beg, borrow and steal the ordered CS amount from someone else(i.e.-you) because if he managed to scrounge up the monthly CS before the court date, the judge will expect it to continue.

How long before a motion can be heard on reducing support? I have heard about bringing a refraining order against FRO once they warn you that your license will be suspended for arrears. That sounds like your best bet. Some guys use those refraining orders to stop paying because they have managed to hide their income(self-employed) and don't want their licenses yanked. In those cases, the judges have ruled against them, because they have been dumb enough to maintain the same lifestyle.

It is hard to get to the point where you are "ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE" who the government is after money. It is a real kick in the teeth I know, but if that is truly the situation, then perhaps certain expenses that are non-essentials that you may be covering for because of the lack of income, then that should stop. You shouldn't feel obligated to subsidize his lack of income to support his ex. I only mention that because if your partner can show he has had to make tough decisions(i.e. cancelling rrsp contributions, gym memberships, other 'non-essentials' etc) then he can go to court with a clear conscience that he truly cannot pay the current amount. Proof will have to be in the pudding at the hearing, his bank statements should reflect how dire the situation is, like if he has had to cash in RRSPs to live etc.

Don't use your income to sugar coat his financial situation.

[#1StepMom]

Thanks for your replies.

He finally managed to get some info from FRO, who advised him to "pay what you can" while he awaits for the issue to be resolved in court in 2 months.

FRO made note of his situation in their system (so they say) and claim they will not begin any enforcements against him. (Yet, they refuse to pull the garnishee summons from Revenue Canada.)

I guess all that can be done now is to "pay what you can" and await the next court date.

[frustrated11]

FRO made note of his situation in their system (so they say) and claim they will not begin any enforcements against him. (Yet, they refuse to pull the garnishee summons from Revenue Canada.)I guess all that can be done now is to "pay what you can" and await the next court date.

the same was said for me, they put a note in their system to not start any action, but these days the actions are almost all automated. Drivers licesne suspension, got refraining order, sent to credit buruea, federal garnishee,
11 months later and still waiting

[NotSoNiceEx]

My Husband is going through the same with his ex, he became unemployed early last year was unable to continue the table amount of child support set on his teaching income and FRO guaransheed his EI, when that ran out and he could not find employment we made an order to vary, the order was varied but we also got a bonus, during the year previous i had a child and my husband stayed home on parental leave when i returned to work, he still paid full table amount and never elected to reduce it. The judge ordered the amount be retroactively reduced, 0$ for the amount of time he received no income and table amount for the period he received EI. They also put the new table amount to reflect what he is currently making. He ended up with quite a large credit but FRO will not make the changes until the Order is received, that could take months, we faxed the endorsement but that is not enough. The FRO will do what they do regardless.

[#1StepMom]

As my husbands says... When having to deal with FRO, it's better to be in arrears than to overpay. Because if you overpay, you'll never see your overpaid money again, but if you are in arrears, you can simply pay what you know is rightfully due. As long as you are paying something, there is little they can do. But, it's always best to pay what is right and reasonable.

[fatherles]

what was your case love to see the judgement to get the bonus of reduce support for months your husband did not work

[Helpinghands]

Im sorry to say but you cant do anything about this.Arrears will accumulate and enforcement will take place.