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Parenting Issues This forum is for discussing any of the parenting issues involved in your divorce, including parenting of step-children.

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  #11  
Old 08-22-2015, 11:00 AM
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Default Why does the clause exist and why is it used so often?

Addressing Stripes:
Quote:
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it really isn't any of your business where Mom is at any time, including the time when she's with Kid.
Doesn't sound harsh. I've gotten used to being told I have no rights and things are none of my business .. since separation. She agrees with you .. I wasn't allowed to know where D4 was for 3 months.

But why does the clause exist? And why is it used so often? The law seems to differ in opinion ... that parents do have a right to know.

Quote:
I don't love not knowing where my daughter is and I wish he wouldn't leave her with his mother-in-law rather than spending time with her, but I recognize that she is safe and her father is not going to put her into any jeopardy, even if his parenting practices are not the same as mine
Our situations are different. Ex has orders to maintain an effective status quo in this city. We are trial-bound and she wants to go saying that she has now laid roots in QC and be granted to relocate after trial. I obviously don't care for that arrangement.

For out-of-country I'd like to be able to consent. For out-of-province .. just informing me like Rioe's would be fine.

I do believe the clause exists for a reason. Both parents have a right to know when their child exits the province.

As Blink mentioned .. I believe that in a case like mine (which is not your average case) .. that this is not an unreasonable request (In our opinions).

I will be more than happy to notify ex each and every time I leave the province. I will not say it's none of her business. Because I believe that it is.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 08-22-2015 at 11:05 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2015, 12:20 PM
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I can see many problems to this situation. Is ex giving the impression that she lives in Ontario while secretly making the transition to Quebec? One wonders what sort of impact that would have legally... Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there significant differences in family law between Quebec and Ontario? I'm not sure if a cross-province thing in say Manitoba/Saskatchewan would be the same thing. Once the mother establishes residence in Quebec would her logical next move not be to have the family law file transferred to the Quebec courts? How would that effect LF32's position with regards to his rights to have a significant, or at the very least, equal role in raising his daughter?
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there significant differences in family law between Quebec and Ontario? I'm not sure if a cross-province thing in say Manitoba/Saskatchewan would be the same thing. Once the mother establishes residence in Quebec would her logical next move not be to have the family law file transferred to the Quebec courts? How would that effect LF32's position with regards to his rights to have a significant, or at the very least, equal role in raising his daughter?
There are in fact considerable differences between family law in Quebec VS other provinces. For one thing, if LF32's ex has a legal aid certificate issued in Quebec, there is a set limit to how many hours she can obtain - no way will she be getting unlimited access to a free lawyer.

Settlement instead of trial would be HIGHLY encouraged.

If the file is transferred to Quebec, it would be less expensive for LF32 - especially at trial time IMO. Judges are not as conservative as in other provinces, Dad's do better - they also see a LOT of self-reps and are willing to assist them to a certain extent.

Aside from the mileage, LF32 might do better in a Quebec courtroom.
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:04 PM
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Typical orders say you can't take remove kids from the jurisdiction aside from short periods (defined as no more than two weeks) for VACATION. She would likely have a hard time proving she has made roots in another province via vacations, even if she takes said vacations every weekend. They are vacations only and not in residence there, unless she secures an address of some kind there, buys or rents a place. And if she does buy or rent a place there it would be considered a second address, I would think, not primary. However if she does buy or rent a place there it would be possible to use this as evidence of her intention to relocate at some point, you could force her into declaring it a second or vacation address which isn't primary. As long as primary address remains in the jurisdiction.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2015, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Addressing Stripes:

Doesn't sound harsh. I've gotten used to being told I have no rights and things are none of my business .. since separation. She agrees with you ..

I really doubt that, as she doesn't know me from a hole in the ground and she sounds like someone with whom I would have very little in common.

If you're going to ask the internet for advice, you'll get some responses which are not what you want to hear. That doesn't mean that the responder is in league with Mom or on her side. The world doesn't divide neatly into allies and enemies.

Given what you've shared about your situation (Mom has family in Quebec and travels there frequently), a clause requiring parents to communicate every time Mom visits family sounds like a recipe for headaches. If the concern is that Mom will try to relocate with Kid, a clause addressing that directly - affirming Kid's province and district of residence - will be much more useful.
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  #16  
Old 08-22-2015, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
My agreement has a paragraph about needing to inform my ex if I plan to take the children out of the province. Not get consent before doing so, just inform in advance. It wasn't anything either of us asked to have put in there, so it is probably pretty standard.

Of course, the only time I ever took the kids out of province since signing it was only for a few hours and I completely forgot about the clause.
I don't believe it is a standard clause - and they use DM now to draft and draw from separation agreement clauses these days and unless requested, it wouldn't typically be part of one. Rioe, how old is your agreement? You've noted you forgot about the clause and didn't notify - what was the ex' reaction?

It's not a clause in mine from 1998, and I just checked the last 6 or so generated and exchanged between offices in the last few months and it is not in any of those, either.

Frankly, if my ex wanted to control/restrict my parenting time in that manner, I'd likely send a text on my way out of the province, particularly since I'm going to Grandma's house. What I do with the kidlet on my time is our time - what he does with his time, is his. And we don't live on a border town now, but I'm from one, and slipping in and out of provinces is a frequent occurrence.

Stripes has got it right.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2015, 10:23 PM
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Well .. we have some poster's who agree that it's completely reasonable to be informed when a child is leaving the province .. and some poster's who find it's not.

My opinion is that every situation is markedly different and I strongly believe that clauses are created for a reason. Most cases I read have such a clause. Not all judges adopt the "none-of-your-business where your kid is on other parents parenting time" approach.

But I got a wealth of good info on this topic and for that I thank all who contributed.

Quote:
Stripes has got it right
...In your opinion. There are many different ones circulating. I dont think it's a "right" vs. "wrong" thing.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 08-22-2015 at 11:11 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-23-2015, 12:25 AM
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I don't think knowing when your child exits the province matters.

The reality is that when you are divorced and the child is with the other parent you are pretty much completely irrelevant except in case of a major medical issue.

When my kids are not with me, they don't exist - its how I cope with it. There is nothing I can do to contact them, speak to them, know what they're doing so I just live as if I was childless.....

The fact you get to know when they are leaving the country is a relic from the past and only relevant if your ex wants to take them a non-hague convention country but I see no actual practical reason for the whole "seek permission" thing for any travelling as long as the parent is always in hague convention countries.
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2015, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Links17 View Post
I don't think knowing when your child exits the province matters.

The reality is that when you are divorced and the child is with the other parent you are pretty much completely irrelevant except in case of a major medical issue.

When my kids are not with me, they don't exist - its how I cope with it. There is nothing I can do to contact them, speak to them, know what they're doing so I just live as if I was childless.....

The fact you get to know when they are leaving the country is a relic from the past and only relevant if your ex wants to take them a non-hague convention country but I see no actual practical reason for the whole "seek permission" thing for any travelling as long as the parent is always in hague convention countries.
Yeh .. I hear you Links. My ex is building status quo in QC though instead of here .. in an attempt to request a relocation come trial .. or after. Each case is unique. Different strokes for different folks.
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2015, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcdreamy View Post
I don't believe it is a standard clause - and they use DM now to draft and draw from separation agreement clauses these days and unless requested, it wouldn't typically be part of one. Rioe, how old is your agreement? You've noted you forgot about the clause and didn't notify - what was the ex' reaction?
The agreement is from 2011, so it's not that old. I don't remember if the clause came from our mediator who drafted the agreement quite efficiently, or from either of our lawyers who tinkered with it quite inefficiently. We probably just read it, had no problem with it and shrugged and left it in.

The time I forgot about it was just a day trip during a visit to the National Capitol Region, where I wasn't really thinking about Gatineau-Hull not actually being in Ontario. I clued in as I crossed the river. I told my ex about it at the first exchange afterwards when I was telling him how the trip went. He said "okay."

I tell my ex every time we leave town, just as a courtesy. I have no idea if he does the same, or keeps it from me. The kids haven't mentioned any secret trips though.

LFs situation is quite different from mine though. He's got an ex trying her best to circumvent everything reasonable and get the child to Quebec with her. She's got majority access time, and spends it ALL in Quebec from the sounds of it. Despite their interim order saying where the child officially resides, she's busy setting up a status quo that the child spends most of her time somewhere else. It's going to be up to the next judge to either agree with her and let her move the child to preserve the status quo established through guile, or slap her hard for disobeying the spirit of the interim agreement.

LF should highlight the continuation of her pattern of establishing status quo through manipulation in his trial submissions if his ex tries to insist that the child should be in Quebec. Also, once the child is in school in Ontario, it becomes harder for his ex to travel so often without making her miss school noticeably. This is why his ex is fighting to keep the child out of JK.

He definitely needs a mobility clause saying the child's residence shall not be moved out of the city without his consent in his final agreement.

Wait this all sounds familiar ... senatorial almost! As long as your official residence is in PEI, it doesn't matter that you spend most of your time living in Ottawa, right?
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