Time for the Lawyer?

[DOakley]

My ex and I separated amicably and I had thought that we could file for divorce jointly. I got one of those DIY Divorce kits where you fill in the paperwork and register your divorce yourself without the lawyer. I thought this would work for us since neither of us have the $ for a lawyer.

Filing jointly would save me and the person I ask to serve the papers on him the hassle of trying to find him. The only place he is predictable is at work. Didn't really want to make a spectacle of it by having him served there.

Anyway, I decided to go the joint route. With this option he has to agree to the claim in it, if there is one, and sign it. Then I mail it in with the payment for the administrative work. The only settlement you can ask for in a joint application is with regards to child support.

When I initially drafted the separation agreement, the calculation for child support was based on an amount I knew from a tax return several years before, come to find out that his income for the separation year was nearly $10,000 more. He didn't tell me. When I found out it meant he owed me $100 per month. He appealed to my sensitive nature and asked that I not take the extra money from him. When I was trying to find a place to rent and rent around here is over $1000, he agreed to give me the extra money, but when I found a cheaper place, he asked me if he could keep it. Seeing that it would be useless to argue, I agreed.

In the joint application I ask for the judge to rule that any future payment schedules be based on his reported income.

My ex is stone-walling on this issue even though the next payment schedule would see him paying only $50 more. I can see him also reducing the overtime he would normally apply for because it would mean he would have to pay me more. (This kind of selfishness is one of the reasons I'm so glad the marriage is over.)

He's holding on to the fact that my child tax credits (after having to pay back some for the time we were still living in the matrimonial home) will restart in full in a couple of months and I've had a couple of other financial helps come into effect. He says that with all that money I'm going to be getting, I don't need the extra money from him. I told him that it's up to him to pay for his kids. Just because I'm getting a little bit of help from the government, doesn't let him off the hook. And I'm not backing down on this. It's what the law requires.

I'm willing to wait until the current term laid out in the separation agreement is fulfilled. He says he doesn't see why it's so urgent to get this done. I know him well enough to know that so long as he doesn't like this stipulation he won't do anything about it. He'll just let it sit there.

I'm ready to move on. I want to start a new romantic life...or be free to do so. I don't want this dragging along behind anymore, but I'm also well aware that bringing lawyers can sour the friendly association we still have and affect our two boys.

I can't even talk to my ex about the issue, he'll just say, "I don't want to talk about this right now. Let's talk about it later" -- and you can probably make an educated guess as to what that means.

So after this long dissertation - gee, perhaps I should have been a lawyer - I wonder if it's time to get the lawyers involved. If I left it up to him he wouldn't have applied at all, and if I don't do anything this will just continue to drag on. I think I've been more than reasonable and more than fair. He claims I don't know what his financial obligations are - he forgets that I was the marriage money manager for 10 years, I know precisely what expenses he has and what he brings in per month. I'm running out of sympathy for him. Up until recently my expenses were about the same dollar figure as his and I make half his income being self-employed. So the financial hardship argument is not going far when my parents make about as much as I do and they're scrimping and saving to make sure we have groceries and he's whining about how poor he is. *head shake*

(BTW he spent most of those 10 years telling me that "we should be rolling in it", particularly in the end couple of years when he had absolutely no clue what was going on money wise and refused to look at and participate in the budgeting aside from doing "his part" and bringing home "his portion" of the money -- even though what we needed was for him to be bringing in nearly twice that).

Anyway...would really appreciate your feedback and opinions on how long I should wait, if at all, before getting lawyers involved (It's already been about 2-3 weeks. I had given myself a limit of 2 weeks. Thank you for reading this far. I really didn't mean for it to be so long.

momof2boys

[lilspinx]

I think you should discuss and set the timeline 'mutually' with your kids other parent.

[fieldgrey]

My opinion: I think a little research might help you make a decision on next steps. I'm nervous to hear you say:

the calculation for child support was based on an amount I knew from a tax return several years before

You shouldn't execute any agreement without having at least 3 years tax returns from your ex. Further, it is standard in agreements to set an annual review of income based on sharing income tax returns. This is about providing children the maximum opportunities in life, including structuring an agreement based on facts. I am afraid that some basic items that an agreement should address are being railroaded.

Don't regret your agreement in the future. You may need seek some form of legal counsel or mediation just to make sure your agreement covers the basics, let alone further negotiation.

Best of luck-

FG

[staysingle]

How many children do you share with ex and what are their ages?

[DOakley]

You shouldn't execute any agreement without having at least 3 years tax returns from your ex.

See, he would never give those to me. He stopped even telling me what kind of a refund he was getting every year because he was afraid I'd spend it on paying down bills or something. He wanted his money all to himself. So I didn't even bother asking.

Further, it is standard in agreements to set an annual review of income based on sharing income tax returns. This is about providing children the maximum opportunities in life, including structuring an agreement based on facts. I am afraid that some basic items that an agreement should address are being railroaded.

Such as? We have made many concessions between us. Many people think I've been too lenient with him. There is no contesting of the visitation/custodial agreement. I have full custody as he works shift work and was unwilling to change diapers and potty train and drop the kids off at school should he have them overnight. He's free to come and see them as his schedule allows with no restrictions as to what he can do and where he can go with them. The money issue is the only on we didn't really agree on in the beginning, but he agreed because he recognized his responsibility to provide for his children.

You may need seek some form of legal counsel or mediation just to make sure your agreement covers the basics, let alone further negotiation.

I think you missed what I was saying. I'm not asking about the separation agreement. We already have that. The only claim I can make on a joint divorce application is for child support, which is all I'm claiming. I'm changing nothing else in the separation agreement and anything is really open for discussion if something changes in the future. He probably realizes that this means that he has to report his income to the courts every year. He doesn't like it, but I know it's the only way he's going to fulfill his legal obligations. He's always going to try to get out of having to pay the full amount he's required to, thinking that what he is paying is sufficient.

I knew he would baulk at it when I put it in.

I just wonder if it's time to move on.

[DOakley]

I think you should discuss and set the timeline 'mutually' with your kids other parent.

Well, see, that's the problem. Kind of hard to do that when he won't even discuss it with me. The only way to do this is for me to set a date, and then I know he will come back and say, "No, I haven't read it, yet."

I have asked him outright to just let me know if he's really stuck on this point so at least I can make plans for the next step. If he knows he's not going to agree with it and is going to fight it, then at least I'll know, instead of him dragging it out and leaving the issue unresolved and unaddressed. I hate loose ends.

[DOakley]

How many children do you share with ex and what are their ages?

Don't know why that matters since the Child Support guidelines don't specify calculations based on ages...but there are 2 children, 15 and 2 1/2, and I have full custody of both. He gets visitation whenever he wants and can do whatever he wants with them. I've set no limitations on this at all. He works shifts.

[staysingle]

You are wrong, it does matter. At 16 years a child can decide where he or she wishes to live (that will definitly effect child support on a broad scale). If your soon to be 15 year old wishes to live with the other parent that can effect where your soon to be 3 year old lives. Argument being splitting up the children is unhealthy etc......... Often times when we are embroiled in family law we loose sight of the forest because of the trees. Your smart for seeking "others" views DOakly.
Try not to involve lawyers if you can. Much of this you can do with some help on this forum. I think you are going to be the one "motioning" . Also, get a registered letter out to him ASAP requesting his three latest NOA.

Good luck

[DOakley]

You are wrong, it does matter. At 16 years a child can decide where he or she wishes to live (that will definitly effect child support on a broad scale). If your soon to be 15 year old wishes to live with the other parent that can effect where your soon to be 3 year old lives. Argument being splitting up the children is unhealthy etc.........

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not entirely sure how this applies to our situation. Does this mean that even though the custody and visitation arrangements - which are not in dispute - are spelled out in the separation agreement that my 15-year-old can decide to live with his father and that decision overrules the agreement? (Not that I can see him ever choosing that.) My ex's work schedule makes it virtually impossible for him to any sort of primary care role in their lives anyway.

While I recognize that a change in this would certainly affect the money he's responsible to pay (I understand that what he pays is proportionate to who has the kids the most), I'm not sure how this applies in this instance. We already have our separation agreement based on the assumption that I would always have full custody. To get any of that changed now would mean more hassle than it's probably worth and would probably cost us more than just the filing for the divorce.

This confusion actually only solidifies my gut instinct to get lawyers involved. There are just too many nuances of law that I wouldn't even think of.

We just want the judge to make a simple ruling declaring us divorced and requiring my ex to pay what the law requires given the circumstances. Obviously, I assume his ruling will allow for annual review by the courts of the custody arrangements, as well as for any change in income.

Also, get a registered letter out to him ASAP requesting his three latest NOA.

I could send all the registered letters I want, doesn't mean he's going to give them to me. He didn't trust me when we were married to let me see them, why would he voluntarily hand them over now. He probably doesn't even know where they are. This would be a case of wasting my breath not to mention the $7 or $8 for postage. Another argument for me to involve a mediator or lawyer.

[staysingle]

Don't fool yourself into thinking lawyers will solve this for you. They will take your money that is all. This is why there is so many "nuances" in family law, so you can hire a lawyer to "save you". Good luck to you, you can spend your money as you see fit. I look at what you have provided so far as not terribly complicated or nuanced.

Yes at 16, children can decide custody with their feet. If pressed, courts will begin listening to them at 14 years old.

Take him to court and force him to produce financial information and while your at it ask for $1,500 in cost. You get the order for financial info and a 50 % for costs. If he doesn't start to cooperate these, "no brainer" court orders that you can easily obtain will make his life hell and you will get the money. Enough people on this site can help you get the paperwork filled out well and get the ball rolling.

[staysingle]

Also, DOakley,
The reason for the registered letter is to show the courts you have formally requested this information from him. The courts like facts and the registered letter shows the courts you tried to resolve this without going to court. Makes him look bad you look good and with the right P'd off judge you will get costs awarded to you. I agree with you he hasn't cooperated much with you and is unlikely to start.

[DOakley]

Take him to court and force him to produce financial information and while your at it ask for $1,500 in cost. You get the order for financial info and a 50 % for costs. If he doesn't start to cooperate these, "no brainer" court orders that you can easily obtain will make his life hell and you will get the money.

In all honesty, this is what I'm afraid of. I know I'm well within my right to go ahead with legal action, but I fear what this will do to our existing friendship and how much the tension will affect the children. I also know it will hurt my ex, which I really don't want to do.

But, then, I went the joint route to keep it as simple as possible and as painless as possible for the two of us. We did both agree that we didn't want to use lawyers as much as possible. And, yet, despite my efforts he's going to make this as difficult as possible.

*sigh*

Well, can't say I didn't try.

[DOakley]

What's the Next Step?

Also, DOakley,
The reason for the registered letter is to show the courts you have formally requested this information from him. The courts like facts and the registered letter shows the courts you tried to resolve this without going to court. Makes him look bad you look good and with the right P'd off judge you will get costs awarded to you. I agree with you he hasn't cooperated much with you and is unlikely to start.

I understand now. That makes sense. What explanation would I give for requesting these given that we already have an agreed-to payment schedule in our separation agreement? I realize they're to prove my point to the court that the amount he's paying is too low.

BTW, according to the instructions from DIY divorce kit for the joint application I don't have to provide any financial statements, though I suppose it doesn't hurt. And I'm under the impression that he doesn't either - at least with the initial filing, but he will be asked to provide documentation prior to or at the hearing. Anybody know if this is accurate?

Also, from this point...assuming he's not going to be forthcoming with any further information or commitment...what do I do next? Fill in Form 8A as a Simple Divorce as opposed to a Joint? The simple divorce doesn't necessarily require a lawyer, does it?

[Rioe]

We just want the judge to make a simple ruling declaring us divorced and requiring my ex to pay what the law requires given the circumstances. Obviously, I assume his ruling will allow for annual review by the courts of the custody arrangements, as well as for any change in income.

You can't assume ANYTHING. If you want an annual review, you have to ask for it. This is why independent legal advice is so important.

[DOakley]

Who does annual review of income/custody arrangements

You can't assume ANYTHING. If you want an annual review, you have to ask for it. This is why independent legal advice is so important.

That was my first mistake...assuming.

He definitely won't go for that if I add it. But it is definitely in my best interests and will be fair to him.

I include that each payment schedule is based on his tax return, but I don't specify who will review and enforce that payment schedule. Hmm. Yep. He definitely won't like that.