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  • Questions about life insurance and a claim of contributions

    Hello,
    I have a few questions I'm hoping someone has some experience with.
    My husband has had his Case Conference and we have a few questions about items that were court ordered.
    He had life insurance and benefits at the time of their separation 14 years ago, but he left that job a few years later and only recently has these benefits again.
    He was ordered to prove that the 2 children are beneficiaries on his life insurance. Originally, the ex wife and 3 children were to be named as beneficiaries. The ex-wife was removed when the spousal support was finished and now the oldest son has been independent for a number of years, so is not needed to be listed to ensure child support if something was to happen to my husband. The question is, if his life insurance benefits exceed what would be paid out in monthly support, how does he name beneficiaries? His son has just completed his first year of university, his daughter will be starting university in Sept 2019. He wants to designate 50% to his daughter, 40% to his son and 10% to me, then make changes each year as they get closer to needing less support. These amounts still exceed what he would actually pay out monthly. Is this doable?
    My second question is about her being ordered to provide a brief setting out her claim to the son's university expenses that she claims she paid. She has only been able to provide some recent transactions. What is she actually required to do? Does she have to show some proof that she paid things? From what we understand, the son has paid her back for some of these things. Should my husband expect that some bank statements would need to be provided to show her account activities so we see if she has been re-paid?
    Thanks for any help you can provide.

  • #2
    Life insurance is to guarantee his child support obligations. Put the insurance in the children’s name and get another life insurance policy with you as the beneficiary. It may even be better to have the second policy in the name of his estate (ie: estate of john doe) and then the money would go to the beneficiaries in his will.

    He should also get a will. If you are married, the life insurance will automatically go to you but should cover his obligations. Unless he’s going to die in the next couple of years I wouldn’t worry about it. But if you are worried about being taken care of, get a second policy that leaves it to you. My partner has one policy for his support obligations and a second to cover any funeral and mortgage expenses.

    As for the expenses, she should be providing proof of all the eligible expenses. A statement of account from the school, receipts for books, receipts for rent and food if they live away from home. For her portion of the expenses, she should be providing either a bank statement showing she paid the school, electronic transfers to the kid or cancelled cheques to the kids. She cant simply say she paid it.

    Im actually surprised the judge is demanding she provide proof she paid her portion. From what my partners lawyer said, it doesn’t matter who paid what from the custodial parent and kid side, they work it out themselves.

    Comment


    • #3
      In regards to the University expenses each party is expected to pay 1/3 of the expenses. Both parents and the child each pay one third. I don’t believe the child nor custodial parent have to prove they paid or repaid their share. What the court is looking for is proof of these expenses such as tuition, books, residence. You don’t need to concern yourself with whether or not the child paid the other party back. The only thing you need to worry about is paying your 1/3 of the total expenses. The other parents bank statements are irrelevant. If you think the child isn’t actually going to school, you would be entitled to proof that the University expenses were actually paid. Then you reimburse your 1/3 to the other parent.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stillbreathing View Post
        In regards to the University expenses each party is expected to pay 1/3 of the expenses. Both parents and the child each pay one third. I don’t believe the child nor custodial parent have to prove they paid or repaid their share. What the court is looking for is proof of these expenses such as tuition, books, residence. You don’t need to concern yourself with whether or not the child paid the other party back. The only thing you need to worry about is paying your 1/3 of the total expenses. The other parents bank statements are irrelevant. If you think the child isn’t actually going to school, you would be entitled to proof that the University expenses were actually paid. Then you reimburse your 1/3 to the other parent.


        Not necessarily. In many cases it is proportionate to income and less the tax deduction. The parents may end up splitting the remaining 2/3 this way.

        What did the judge set out as the childs portion vs the parents portion?

        Comment


        • #5
          As of yet, the portions haven't been decided. My husband started a motion to vary the child support because when their eldest child went to college for 2 years child support was an issue. The first year, the son lived with the mother, so not problem to pay her child support for him. Just before the first year ended, she moved to another home 70 km away and told him he had to get an apartment. He did, so my husband told her that he should be paying the support directly to the son or paying his rent, books etc. She said NO, he "legally" still resides with me, you have to keep paying me or you will be in arrears and I will go after you. Nice. She did not give the son any of the child support (approx. $4100 for that year).
          Now, the second son started university and is living away on campus. My husband emailed her to ask for a variance, saying he wanted to pay a reduced amount of child support to her for him while he is away, then the full amount when he is home during the summer, that way he had money to help him with educational expenses, while still paying full support for his daughter who is in school.
          She flatly declined saying the agreement says child support will not be terminated until both children reach their first degrees. Great deal if you can get it! So, he contacted a lawyer back in September and here we are. The lawyer explained that he didn't ask to terminate, but to change it since she isn't buying him food etc. now. She now says she is paying his credit card bills, his whole cell phone bill and giving him cash so she should get the full amount of support for him. We know she is only paying some of his cell phone bill. The credit card is new since she was asked to prove expenses. She has shown the credit card bills, she has shown the one transaction each time saying she paid it. Same with the cell phone. No other part of her account activity is being shown. The judge ordered the brief I'm guessing because whether she is using all the support for him or not is in dispute. My husband wants to help his son, but with full child support for 2, he is a bit limited. Its especially frustrating with her history of not helping the kids if they are not right with her.
          The insurance is a bother because if both kids are designated 50%, the one daughter hasn't even started university yet, the son is 2 years ahead of her. She will need more support guaranteed. Giving both 50% and if something awful does happen in a few years, both kids will get approx. 30 k, and the older son that already got ripped off, gets nothing. That is why we were trying to balance the insurance so as time went on, their percent would lower so they wouldn't get more than the brother.
          I sure hope what I've typed makes sense, lol. Thanks

          Comment


          • #6
            The whole case the ex is making doesn’t make sense.

            If the kids live away at school, cs is either lowered or only paid during summer months only. The reason is because living expenses are being paid while the kid is living away from home. The ex cant suck and blow. She cant have living expenses in two places, its not legal.

            Living expenses are also for rent and food. Not cell phones and credit card expenses. I really do not understand why the judge is asking for those.

            Did she provide proof of the living expenses? For instance rent and food? Did the judge say anything else about cs and school expenses? It may be a case that the judge wants full disclosure. Her failure to provide this stuff will only work in your husbands favour.

            If I were your husband, I would go into the next case conference asking for proof of the living expenses and make an offer to pay his proportionate share of those. Or argue that he paid full table support and that should have gone to the kids expenses to LIVE. Cell phones are not an extra-ordinary expense.

            Life insurance is to pay the remaining support regardless of how much it is. My partner has $150,000 in kids name and he technically owes $30,000. We aren’t worrying about the rest and he will change it as soon as his kids are finished school. As I said, if you are worried about money not going to you, get another policy. Leave the rest to the kids.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm definatley not worried about money not going to me. I have my policy through work and we have another policy. Our issue was strictly seeing a bunch of money going to 2 out of 3 kids. Not the support/educational money, but the difference in the overage if one was almost ready to graduate. He has changed it to 50/50 to make life easier.
              No, she shouldn't be allowed to suck and blow, but since he couldn't afford a lawyer the first time to fight about a years worth of support, she did get to.
              The judge at the conference told her that her support would absolutely go down and that some of her claims would not be allowed to be included. My husbands lawyer asked her twice to show all these expenses she claims to be paying. She replied that she didn't think she would be expected to prove that she was helping her own son. Then she sent a bunch of useless garbage showing he bought his train tickets to come home at holidays, that he bought books, put down the deposit on his residence, nothing that she actually paid as she had said. She was asked again, and that is when she provided the credit card bills and the phone bills. Those items are what we hope to see actual proof. We know that when the son wanted the brand new phone and more data, she told him she would continue to pay what she had been paying, and he would have to cover the rest. Now she claims that she is paying it all. We aren't sure when we will see what she was ordered to supply, the judge said in a timely manner. The next step according to the lawyer is a settlement conference, which he will again give an amount for while the son is away and while he is there and for her to pay some of the costs.
              the ex in her very first reply to the lawyers letter said all the expenses in regards to getting the son to university were born by her. He received quite a few nice scholarships and grants (the new OSAP is part loan, part grant) and only had to borrow $7100.00 in an OSAP loan.
              We are expecting he will be ordered to pay 1/3 of the borrowed money in proportion to his income as she will be. There is not way to enforce it, so she probably won't, we absolutely will.

              Comment


              • #8
                He can change is life insurance to be simply to the kids. That way if he does die, they benefit from the money and his estate has no further obligations. You will see several posts on this forum about how awful fighting about life insurance is. Just change it and hope nothing happens to him in the next five years.

                His lawyer should be arguing the two separate issues: child support and school/living expenses.

                Child support that was paid should have been offset against the portion of living expenses. For instance, the portion of cs to that child could be $3000 for the months kid was at school. If dads portion of the living expenses is $3000, he can argue he has no obligation for those expenses. Or he can do two charts, one showing his cs what he owed, what he paid and the difference and a chart for what was owed for living expenses and what was paid with the numbers off set against each other. Question: did the judge say what he owed monthly while kid was at school?

                As for the school expenses, the loans go for kids portion. Even if his portion is $5000 and he got $7000, the $2000 can be saved to pay off his loan. You subtract the grants from the total tuition.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, he did make the change this morning as I mentioned above.
                  He is arguing child support and said he fully intends to help with the university expenses, whether ordered to or not. His main goal is to have to give the ex wife as little as possible so he can give the son as much as possible because then the money will actually be spent on the son. If he was paying $450/month for the the son, he would like to pay apprx 100 to the mother (a portion of the difference in renting the extra bedroom plus a bit to his cell phone) and$350 to the son either by paying his rent, cable, books, portion of his tuition.
                  Nothing has been ordered yet as far as what the new child support will be. They haven't been told how much in expenses yet either. They have only been to one case conference, no decisions have been made as she wants full support, plus my husband to pay any school expenses.
                  I believe now that the judge has burst that bubble, she is likely aware that her way won't be the case and it will probably be a bit less than my husbands original email offer to her last September. He has been paying the full amount of support each month, as his lawyer advised him to. She also doesn't have a lawyer, so all hold ups have not cost her anything, we have paid just over $6,000 in fees, filings, serving, etc.
                  Then, when his daughter goes to university in the fall of 2019, this will all have to be done again because she has no reason not to take her chances when it isn't costing her anything. That is why my husband hopes he will be given some of his support back or that she is faced with some costs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When you go through this process and reach an order, make sure it clearly outlines what expenses will be going forward.

                    For instance, should the child(ren) attend school away from home, cs will be reduced to $X for eight months and full table through may to august. Eligible school expenses are tuition, books, rent/residence and meal plan/food expenses less any grants, scholarships and awards. Costs will be calculated as 1/3 to the child with the remaining net cost apportioned according to the incomes of the party.

                    Depending on how you go forward, definitely seek costs.

                    My partner is in a similar situation with $5000 in legal fees with an ex who wants full cs, living expenses and school expenses that are all calculated with limited contribution from the child. Its ridiculous the amount of hoops family law puts in place to get through this stuff!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I agree, its crazy. Another sad part is, his income is less than it was and she still said she would not notify FRO of a lower child support amount. So, she can just say NO and the child support payer has to either just continue to pay more than he can or pay a lawyer to point out that she can't decline to notify based on lower income.
                      Our lawyer says that a judge won't order x amount for this time, then y amount when they are home because FRO doesn't want to decide if the child is home or not or for how many months. The judge will probably say x amount while away, y amount while home. Add x and y and divide by 12 for a steady amount all along.
                      Thanks for all the information, I really appreciate it. Good luck with your case, I hope you get the results you should.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thats the best way to do it. Average it out but make sure that both are in the order because FRO will screw it up!

                        Also, he should calculate what the change was for the last three years and add/subtract that from his amount owing.

                        I wish FRO would move to the MEP way where you can update based on income. Wont happen in our lifetime!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          FRO should be expanded beyond money collection. They should have a force that enforces access orders etc...

                          If they are going to be the "family" responsibility office then, they should be. As well, FRO and CAS should be merged into one operating organization with a new mandate.

                          Having child protection and family responsibility as two different orgs just doubles the costs of operating them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Personally I agree in some way with your comments Tayken but on the other hand I disagree the problem is with those agencies. There needs to be straightforward language in the fcsg on post secondary so that the problem is stopped at the court filing AND a “traffic cop” to weed through the filings to tell people what they can and can’t claim.

                            I think its ridiculous that thousands have to be spent on lawyers to go to several conferences where 75% of the time is spent advising people what they can and can’t claim. Like this case, my partner is at several grand and a judge has yet to comment.

                            Comment

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