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  • Another Post Secondary for Everyone

    Hi Everyone

    Let the battles begin once again! Our oldest son is going off to university in a few short weeks. He has applied for all scholarships, bursaries, reduction in tuition, loans and such. Due to my low income he will be receiving substantial grants and such but there is a loan portion and a portion that isn't covered after all these monies are applied. My son is more than willing to shoulder the loan portion of it as I have always taught him that things in life aren't free.
    He will be living in residence but will be coming home 3 days out of the week as he does not have classes on the Friday. He needs to come home as he will be volunteering as an auxiliary officer with the local detachment of our police. This is in hopes of helping him get his foot in the door once he is done school.
    I will be sending a fair bit of food back with him as he opted for the minimal food plan(which is mandatory). Does the amount of time that he will be home and the fact that I will still be supplying food and doing his laundry(to save money) affect CS that is owed for him?
    I went the other day and bought what he needs for his dorm room, savings as much as I could by buying as much as I could at the dollar store. I messaged my ex with the amount and he is flat out refusing to pay any portion of it. He is also refusing to pay any portion of tuition and such costs. Our court order states that he is responsible for X% of section 7 expenses that are in the best interest of the child. He is claiming that going to post secondary does NOT fall under this.
    It has been a battle from day 1 to try and receive any monies out of him for section 7 expenses.
    We also have younger special needs children that he refuses to pay any extra expenses for. I have a letter from my daughters doctor saying that it would be a great benefit for her to attend therapy riding. I have not utilized this, opting instead to buy a horse myself, pay for all expenses for said horse, so that my daughter and the other special needs children can ride as much as possible. The therapists are all remarking as to how much better her muscle strength is due to this. I did ask for him to pay his portion towards the boots that they need to ride(which I purchased at an incredible sale price). Once again, he refuses!!!....claiming that it isn't in the best interest of the kids.
    Is a court order the only way to get through to someone like this?
    BTW, he has 3 vehicles sitting in his driveway, of which he is the only driver

  • #2
    Another Post Secondary for Everyone

    The cars make no difference. Only his income makes a difference.

    Post secondary is considered a section 7 expense under the child support guidelines so hes out of luck getting out of paying.

    If your son is in residence, CS would normally be reduced while hes away. From what youve said the only questionable expenses would be his travel expenses to go home every weekend and the excess food when hes on a meal plan. The rest: tuition, books, equipment will all be subject to the s7 calculation.

    Im not a lawyer so take my advice with a grain of salt...

    Heres what I would suggest: calculate the whole cost of tuition, books, equipment (computer, school supplies etc); split that in three; take 2/3 and calculate his %.

    Whatever that number is, tell him youve calculated an estimate of his portion which will be XX. If he still refuses youll need court action. Someone else here can suggest better wording.

    Bottom line is hes on the hook for a portion of school and you could argue for the riding costs if you could get a medical opinion it was necessary. But thats a leap.

    What does your agreement say about post secondary?
    Last edited by rockscan; 08-13-2015, 10:57 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      He is claiming that going to post secondary does NOT fall under this
      Why don't you just send him a reference, show it does. How much does he think he should pay then?


      Is a court order the only way to get through to someone like this?
      Probably, or at least the threat of it anyways.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is the website that lays out the expenses:
        http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r...75/page-3.html

        If nothing in your agreement says anything about post secondary and other activities, I would send him a strongly worded email pointing out the law to him and that he is legally obligated to contribute to the school expenses. If he is unwilling to cooperate, you will seek relief via the courts.

        If that goes nowhere, youre going to need a lawyer. Or if youre willing to try self repping, file a motion for support.

        Comment


        • #5
          Rockscan.....I mentioned the vehicles he has in the driveway as he is claiming that he is broke and can't pay LOL
          Thank you for all of the advice, looks like it is going to be another trip to court and this time I will be asking for the expense of it going to him.
          It seems like trying to be nice just isn't going to work for him. I could have filed to have his child support increased a year ago already but I was trying to keep things civil. Now I will be asking for the increase.
          I will have to do the calculations but right now it looks like it would be in his best interest to continue to pay support as we weren't going to ask for the cost of travel.

          Comment


          • #6
            Technically the travel back and forth isnt necessary and you would have a hard time arguing that. Your son is volunteering in the hopes of getting a job. If it was necessary travel you would have an argument. Youre best to go after school costs, living costs and the s7 that are medically necessary for the others. Remember you have to look reasonable.

            Comment


            • #7
              So he's paying to live in residence full-time, but he is also coming home three days a week? I would think that only one of those things should be covered by S7 (in other words, you can't expect your ex to pay for residence and also continue CS to you for accommodating Kid at home - that would be double-dipping). I would ask for him to to cover his share of residence costs because that's pretty easy to quantify - there's a clear and indisputable price tag. If Kid is choosing to come home to take part in a volunteer programme, that's not postsecondary education and therefore isn't your ex's responsibility (unless he agrees to continue CS to you because Kid is volunteering). Same with the extra food and laundry - if Kid is already paying for even a minimal meal plan at his residence, I don't think you can expect Dad to also pay for additional food and services at home.

              Postsecondary is clearly S7 according to the FCSG, but you have to be careful that the expenses you want Dad to cover are truly postsecondary expenses, and not just conveniences for Kid.

              As for the horse-related expenses, I think you would need a note from a medical professional saying that horseback riding is part of an approved treatment plan for the child's condition (not just a good idea). Without that medical note, Dad is within his rights to refuse to contribute to the costs unless he has given his consent in advancement, like any other extracurricular activity.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                So he's paying to live in residence full-time, but he is also coming home three days a week? I would think that only one of those things should be covered by S7 (in other words, you can't expect your ex to pay for residence and also continue CS to you for accommodating Kid at home - that would be double-dipping). I would ask for him to to cover his share of residence costs because that's pretty easy to quantify - there's a clear and indisputable price tag. If Kid is choosing to come home to take part in a volunteer programme, that's not postsecondary education and therefore isn't your ex's responsibility (unless he agrees to continue CS to you because Kid is volunteering). Same with the extra food and laundry - if Kid is already paying for even a minimal meal plan at his residence, I don't think you can expect Dad to also pay for additional food and services at home.

                Postsecondary is clearly S7 according to the FCSG, but you have to be careful that the expenses you want Dad to cover are truly postsecondary expenses, and not just conveniences for Kid.

                As for the horse-related expenses, I think you would need a note from a medical professional saying that horseback riding is part of an approved treatment plan for the child's condition (not just a good idea). Without that medical note, Dad is within his rights to refuse to contribute to the costs unless he has given his consent in advancement, like any other extracurricular activity.


                The minimal meal plan that my son has chosen(which I already stated is mandatory) only provides him with 1 meal a day. If you know what 19 year old boys are like, they definitely need more then that. We can buy him a laundry card so that he can do it at school, we were just trying to help Dad out by me offering to do it at home as the machines there are quite expensive. I don't mind him not bringing it home, it would clear up my weekend
                As for the "volunteering", because my son is not a clear minority he needs whatever advantage he can get to be able to gain employment once he is done school. By giving up his weekends that he could be enjoying it is helping him to secure employment once done school as they will already know what his work ethic is. I commend my son for doing this and giving up his free time instead of coming home and hanging around with friends, or staying up there and partying.
                As for the horseback riding, I had already stated that I do have a note from the doctor saying that it is medically beneficial. I was just trying to show that I have been going above and beyond to not "skin" my ex for money by providing the expensive part myself and only asking for his contribution to their boots.
                There is a reason why so many don't like these forums, that being that someone posts simply looking for some clarification yet others decide that the poster should be crucified.
                I have done everything to keep costs down, paying much of what he could be asked to share in but I have not. He simply and flat out REFUSES to pay for any section 7 expenses!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don’t think anyone is crucifying you, posters are just offering their opinion, which should always be taken with a grain of salt and, of course, none of us are lawyers.

                  I don’t think the answers above are accurate anyway. The kidlet coming home weekends to volunteer in a position that will position his career most certainly will be supported by the courts (most careers these days require the applicant to show they’ve done additional work/volunteering to go over and beyond the other candidates). Additionally I can’t see any court not allowing (reasonable) horse expenses for a special needs child as a s7 expense.

                  And yes, the amount of time that he is at home does affect the calculations. Where would you like to start your negotiations? I’d start at 50-65% cs payable during the school term, plus the ex’ proportionate share of s7 postsecondary (inclusive of travel expenses) and, based on the ex’ income, I wouldn’t be following the 30/30/30 that is often bandied around on the forums. I also wouldn’t allow your kidlet to take the full loan, his first year in. If the kidlet plans on a masters/grad or future police college, he’ll need access to those loans later on.

                  On a side note, I would strongly suggest you purchase the maximum meal plan – they will refund at the end of the year if he has a credit. Also, during the school year you will likely have add money to his student card/meal plan, so remember to add that in your calculations as an additional expense. I typically had to add $200-$300 every term and ours came home weekends as well.

                  I don’t think you need a lawyer for this, how have you addressed these concerns with the ex - via text only? Time to send a letter with a time limit to respond, failing which you file a motion. You’ll need to provide the ex with a detailed budget for the above and forward receipts with your letter, particularly if you need to file with FRO to collect s7.
                  Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Schooling is a no brainer. Same goes to the food plan, books etc. They are s7 and 2/3's of it will be split proportionally between the parents.

                    The child should be responsible for 1/3 of the cost of their education. They are the one who benefits most from it, so they should bear some of the cost.

                    The costs for transportation are more a grey area. Distance and costs will determine whether it is s7. Same goes for maintaining regular c/s, or close to regular c/s, as it could very well be argued by the ex that the extra cost of the expanded food plan is less than what you are expecting in maintaining c/s amounts similar to guideline. Depending on the cost of the food plan vs how much you receive in c/s will determine whether or not it makes sense to simply by the food plan. If the food plan is cheaper than what the ex would have to continue to pay in c/s, if I was your ex, I would argue it makes more sense to get the food plan.

                    The laundry point is actually irrelevant. The kid is coming home the weekends to volunteer. If laundry gets done at that time, the cost to transport it is moot.

                    Your ex will almost certainly get woken up to the fact that they have to contribute to their kids education. They will argue c/s should be reduced. And unless you can provide convincing financial reasons that it is actually cheaper to do A vs B (mainly in relation to the food plan), c/s will be reduced for the school year, likely to about 35-40% (kid lives away 4 out of 7 days, so they aren't home 57% of the time. Expect a reduction to close to that %).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Most of us arent being mean, we're trying to be realistic. Your ex IS obligated to pay for some things and he will argue to get out of all of it. When we say "be realistic" its because we're trying to help you reach an acceptable point for agreement. He will argue that if kid needs to come home every weekend why is he going away? Or if kid is coming home and youre buying food why is he paying residence costs? Or if kid is willing to use all his loans why is dad required to do anything? Prepare yourself for all the assholeish comments he could possibly make.

                      First step is getting all your costs organized and figured out. Then a letter with a timeline for response sent. Then the prep to file papers. You said you needed to update cs anyway so you should definitely get on that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Momoffour View Post
                        There is a reason why so many don't like these forums, that being that someone posts simply looking for some clarification yet others decide that the poster should be crucified.
                        I have done everything to keep costs down, paying much of what he could be asked to share in but I have not. He simply and flat out REFUSES to pay for any section 7 expenses!
                        You're not being crucified. One of the advantages of these forums is that you can get your story reflected back to you by people who are hearing it for the first time and you can understand what aspects of it other people might find confusing. For me, what I noticed was that Kid is paying for residence but only living there a little over half time. You would need a very strong argument for why this is necessary (or why Dad should pay Kid's residence costs and also continue CS to support Kid at home).

                        Dad may well argue that if Kid wants to be at home half the week, it's not realistic for him to enrol in a school out of town - you would need to have good answer for that. (Kid may also wish to consider whether coming home three days out of seven is a good idea in terms of academic success - students don't just party on the weekends, there are a lot of labs and study groups which happen as well. His volunteer commitment could result in his marks suffering).

                        It also wasn't clear that the mandatory meal plan was one meal a day - in this case, it does make sense to ask Dad for extra money for food.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You can pay a lawyer 300$/hr to tell what you like, so your feelings don't get hurt.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Links17 View Post
                            You can pay a lawyer 300$/hr to tell what you like, so your feelings don't get hurt.
                            or you can hang around and receive assvice for free

                            You'll do quite fine, start the process by detailing the budget, collect your invoices/receipts, etc. and put it all in writing. If you need some help drafting a letter, send me quick note.
                            Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Momoffour View Post
                              ...
                              I have not utilized this, opting instead to buy a horse myself, pay for all expenses for said horse, so that my daughter and the other special needs children can ride as much as possible...
                              One can point out multiple cars sitting in "his" driveway.

                              One can also point out that you buy your own horse, and can afford all the expenses associated with that, apparently.

                              lol.

                              Wouldn't it just be cheaper for lessons, or some other lower cost option, than owning a horse and all the fees associated with that?

                              Comment

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