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  • When is "indefinite", "forever"

    Separated in June, trying to work out the separation agreement with my STBX. Married 24 years, she is 56 so the Rule of 65 works out to 80! STBX is not working and could probably earn no more than $20~$25K if she tried.

    DivorceMate/MySupportCalculator/my lawyer all say that I'll have to pay support indefinitely. From what I read and heard, in my case indefinite really means until the STBX passes away. I've also heard that in some cases indefinite does end.

    What do you think my chances are of support not being forever?

    How do you structure the Spousal Support agreement to take into account when I retire? I plan to start a business and don't want my STBX coming back to ask for more if I am successful. I also don't want to retire on a greatly reduced salary and loose most of it in SS.

    Any thoughts, advice are welcome!

  • #2
    Does STBX have any history of working? Career training? If any of her skills are outdated by two years or more, then unfortunately for you that is the law. You will be paying her support as long as law states unless you can negotiate something else. Even if she is to work somewhere for minimum wage, she would be considered disadvantaged.

    Not sure what your issues are. You are fairly recently separated and the marriage was long. Is there any hope for couple counselling to salvage this?
    Last edited by MommyTime; 10-19-2014, 02:38 PM.

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    • #3
      Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, no hope of reconciliation on this one.

      STBX hasn't worked for a few year and, yes, I have no problem paying support. We're just trying to figure out a fair agreement avoiding the lawyers and the courts.

      Before I agree to paying support forever I'd like to know that I really have no choice. (ie. If it were to go to court, they would most likely order this.) And I am looking for feedback on how others have structured this sort of thing in their separation agreements. Forever is a long time.

      Thanks,

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ifonlyihadknown View Post
        Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, no hope of reconciliation on this one.
        That is really unfortunate. Whatever the circumstance to decide to separate I hope both of you can take a step back before getting sucked into the nightmare of divorce. Do your best to try to resolve your issues. If there was abuse or cheating etc, then those are understandable conditions to proceed but hopefully counselling was considered first. MHO.

        Originally posted by ifonlyihadknown View Post
        STBX hasn't worked for a few year and, yes, I have no problem paying support. We're just trying to figure out a fair agreement avoiding the lawyers and the courts.
        Does she have any career training?
        1. If she does, perhaps you can negotiate SS for the duration to upgrade those skills in school plus xx years so that she can reenter that field and stabilize herself financially. This would be seen as reasonable.
        2. If not, and has only worked odd jobs at *minimum wage to get out of the house* then, due to her age, I anticipate it would be unfair not to provide her with appropriate support for as long as the law states is appropriate. Basically, it would be unfair to expect that she goes back to school at her age, train anew, start a brand new career, work for 10 years before retirement and meet the standards you have achieved through your career throughout your marriage. This expectation would be seen as unreasonable.

        Likely, the latter is not what you want to hear and you will search this board for better answers that will suit you. This is nothing personal. Go ahead.

        However, it seems like both of you want to be reasonable and are trying to negotiate yourselves. Do remember to take a step back every once in a while (especially when there are high emotions) and remember the 24 years you spent together no matter how hard that may be at the time. This will be a very painful process for both of you. You will want to hate each other through this and will *pretend* that you never loved each other. Remember this for an amicable settlement. Remember the truth about each other.

        The second she feels you are not negotiating fairly, lawyers will get involved. Then allegations from both sides, true or not. Then court. Trial after that. It unravels quickly as each of you will want to get a leg up on the other for *whatever* reason. Do what you can to keep it out of the courts. Nobody *wins* there. And after 24 years together, that would be a travesty.

        Be fair. This is much better than being in court and questioned about having been *unreasonable.*
        Last edited by MommyTime; 10-19-2014, 03:44 PM.

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        • #5
          At age 56, your ex probably cannot realistically retrain and get back into the workforce as she could if she were 20 years younger. She also deserves to have a decent retirement, as do you, even though neither of you will have the standard of living you had if you had remained married.

          I am not a lawyer and don't pretend to know how this would play out, but I'm wondering why she stayed home for 24 years. Did you have children, and was she the primary parent raising them? Did her staying home facilitate your career - e.g. you could take on more overtime or career opportunities because she was home? Did she contribute her labour to your businesses? The more you benefited from her being out of the workforce, the more you should compensate her (which it sounds like you figured out already). (I've seen a number of men on here who claim that their ex insisted on staying home during their marriage against their wishes, and that they therefore shouldn't have to pay SS - good to hear that you're not on that page).

          Would it be possible to transfer assets (house, investments) to her as a lump-sum payment of SS? This would be short-term pain for long-term gain on your part, but would let you know exactly what you owe. There are tax implications to paying SS in a lump sum, so consult a tax expert before going down this route. You could also offer to ensure that her health insurance and other benefits continue to be covered.

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          • #6
            Thanks for your reply, stripes,

            One child, now grown up. Did she facilitate my career? She took care of the house while I worked a normal 9-5 job. Nothing fancy. Why didn't she work more? She's an immigrant, language was an issue. Not the strongest constitution so having her well rested at home didn't seem so bad compared to both of us being tired in the evening. We didn't really need the money.

            Not enough assets to make a lump sum payment and have anything left over.

            Can't change the past. Just trying to be fair without being fleeced more than I have to be. I'm disappointed that there isn't some sort of mandatory arbitration that just tells you what is considered fair and gives you the option of going to court if you don't like it.

            Cheers,

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ifonlyihadknown View Post
              I'm disappointed that there isn't some sort of mandatory arbitration that just tells you what is considered fair and gives you the option of going to court if you don't like it.
              Then take the mediation route (free at some courthouses). A mediator can work for both of you so that you both become knowledgable. However, this seems to project more about *money* for you than it does about the loss of 24 years. I caution this could get ugly if you're not smart and fair.

              I am somewhat hesitant about some of your comments:
              Did she facilitate my career? She took care of the house while I worked a normal 9-5 job. Nothing fancy.
              Why didn't she work more? She's an immigrant, language was an issue. Not the strongest constitution..

              An immigrant for 24 years? Or more? I too have been in this country for about 20 years and it has not been a deterrent. What's the point? What's the real reason she was out in the workforce? Defining this would be more credible.
              Can't change the past. Just trying to be fair without being fleeced more than I have to be..

              Is this only about $$$ for you? Given what you have provided above, this view doesn't support what you have said about her capability to be self-sufficient. 24 years and it boils down to money? Don't be ridiculous.
              Last edited by MommyTime; 10-19-2014, 04:55 PM.

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              • #8
                No, seriously, those are the reasons as far as I know. And I was there! As for any real reason, you'd have to ask her. I'm not kidding.

                I'm not blaming or disparaging anyone. My STBX is a very nice person. I like her, but I don't love her. The non-money issues have been going on for years and will continue as we both grieve. This is the "Financial" forum, right?

                I will be responsible for working and providing for her as long as one of us is alive. She will get a full indexed pension (from me) and never have to work a day in her life. 20 or 30 years from now, I'll still be paying while she enjoys herself (good for her). Are you going to tell me that it's not about money?

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                • #9
                  To be honest, I read more an issue of *feeling* unfulfilled by your STBX than I do about your question to settle amicably. If she's feeling unfulfilled, perhaps counselling will suffice. Divorce is not either of your best friends. Consider this. 24 years.

                  Yes, this is the *financial* forum but you're not paying attention to what could be the root for your STBX. 24 years? Really? Money is all it boils down to? For you?

                  Also, if you go through with this divorce, it already seems you know the answer to your IP question. I quote: "I will be responsible for working and providing for her as long as one of us is alive."

                  Think about it.
                  Last edited by MommyTime; 10-19-2014, 05:33 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Great posts mommy time!

                    I agree, it's a lot to throw away 24 years of marriage, but then who I am to judge?

                    However, if you want to look for examples and case law.
                    go to CanLII - Canadian Legal Information Institute

                    It's not a court of justice, it's family law. So stop thinking of doing what's fair and read up. That's the only way you will be prepared.

                    Originally posted by MommyTime View Post
                    To be honest, I read more an issue of *feeling* unfulfilled by your STBX than I do about your question to settle amicably. If she's feeling unfulfilled, perhaps counselling will suffice. Divorce is not either of your best friends. Consider this. 24 years.

                    Yes, this is the *financial* forum but you're not paying attention to what could be the root for your STBX. 24 years? Really? Money is all it boils down to? For you?

                    Also, if you go through with this divorce, it already seems you know the answer to your IP question. I quote: "I will be responsible for working and providing for her as long as one of us is alive."

                    Think about it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FirstTimer View Post
                      I agree, it's a lot to throw away 24 years of marriage, but then who I am to judge?
                      Thank you (did mention in other posts that I *could be* of assistance to others. My strength lies on the emotional side, as I learn the legal side in school) But I'm afraid it has already started. The OP has already claimed that he *likes* STBX but sadly, he does not love her.

                      You know what? Love can be reignited! It takes some help sometimes but it's possible, particularly if within the couple there was no abuse and no cheating.

                      It's heartbreaking to see situations like this without *trying* first. The OP has not indicated that any effort has been proposed or put in place to salvage this marriage. 24 years. OMG! And he likes her! Shameful. Sad. Stupid IMO.

                      [Tangent over. Nothing more to add at this point.]
                      Last edited by MommyTime; 10-19-2014, 06:12 PM.

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                      • #12
                        I don't believe it matters if things could be reignited, if one partner wants to and the other doesn't, if both want to or if neither wants to. The question is about understanding and getting through the financial portion of the divorce process. Speculation on getting the couple back together were neither asked for nor relevant to the questions asked.

                        Yes, every couple has emotions and emotional issues to deal with during and after the breakdown of a marriage. This does not in any way negate the need to have the financials properly dealt with.

                        Feel free to start a 'Get ifonlyihadknown and his wife back together' thread in the matchmaking or psychology forums if you really want to. In this thread, feel free to answer the questions actually asked about financials.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                          Feel free to start a 'Get ifonlyihadknown and his wife back together' thread in the matchmaking or psychology forums if you really want to. In this thread, feel free to answer the questions actually asked about financials.
                          I've provided insight / suggestions to both.

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                          • #14
                            Sorry Mommytime, I agree with Blink. OP did not ask "how can I reconcile".

                            Providing pop psychology and unrequested reconciliation advice will not make you very popular here on a board where most come looking for facts and information.

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                            • #15
                              As stated, I provided both. Whether asked for or not, both are there. Wouldn't anyone else here have appreciated the *challenge* to consider all options before that horrific divorce route? In court? The OP is not yet in court. There is still a possibility of hope.

                              I answered OP's questions to the best of my ability; and also added what could be considered outside of it. Is that an issue for anyone? Do we all strive for a court process? It's not necessarily the case for all of us. And this can become a consideration for anyone seeking advice. The OP has not been adamant about seeking a divorce. Those are the facts as *presented.*

                              Comment

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