Is pension accrued before marriage...

[thefunone]

Quick question....are RRSPs....and pension accrued before marriage considered when determining Net Property Value?
My stbx has indicated that while she wants to have her RRSPs that she accrued during marriage to be added to her Net property Value - but doesn't want my pension accrued before marriage added so that she can claim an equalization payment...I am trying to locate case law -but can't seem to find anything that identifies a decision.
History- I started accruing a pension for 11yrs prior to marriage...she is entitled and going to get a portion of my pension accrued during time of marriage to date of separation...she acquired 25K in RRSPs prior to our marriage...
If she is allowed or wanting to claim RRSPs that she acquired pre-marriage- can I not do the same?

[Mess]

Quick question....

It's longer than you think

are RRSPs....and pension accrued before marriage considered when determining Net Property Value?

All assets including RRSP and accrued pension from before marriage should be included in determining you net asset coming into the marriage.

These assets are not subject to equalization; they are added up so that you may subtract them from your net assets on separation date.

You then consider the resulting net amount for the purpose of equalization.

So if you had $1000 coming in, $1500 at separation, it is clear you gained $500 during the marriage.

Your ex had $2000 coming, $4000 at separation, so gained $2000 during the marriage.

The total gained during the marriage would be $2500. This amount should be split. Each should leave with a gain $1250.

Since you only have the $500 gained, the equalization would pay you $750. Then you would each be leaving the marriage with an equal GAIN. You do not leave with equal amounts. Hopefully the diference between "gain" and "amount" is clear.

My stbx has indicated that while she wants to have her RRSPs that she accrued during marriage to be added to her Net property Value

That's very cute. She is implying that she has some choice in the matter.

- but doesn't want my pension accrued before marriage added so that she can claim an equalization payment...

I am not sure if she is being honest and ignorant, or if she is trying to pull a fast one.

I am trying to locate case law -but can't seem to find anything that identifies a decision.

Don't worry too much about case law unless it is clear you are heading to trial. For now you should be trying to locate an accountant and concentrate on family law legislation. The legislation is clear that you split the net gain during the marriage. In order to calculate that gain, you must consider what you had coming in, and subtract that from what you have coming out. That includes your pension.

If you do not consider the pension coming in, you would just be looking at the total pension, and she would be unfairly getting a split of your entire pension, not just the amount accrued during marriage.

History- I started accruing a pension for 11yrs prior to marriage...she is entitled and going to get a portion of my pension accrued during time of marriage to date of separation...

Why is this? Please be clear here.

The federal regulations allow the the CPP to be split, this is outside the equalization calculations.

I BELIEVE that federal government pensions have internal rules about splitting the pension. Some posters here have mentioned such; it is outside my experience. Family law does not require pensions to be split.

What may happen is that instead of selling the house, or liquidating other assets, what is chosen instead is to split the pension, such that amount covers equalization. Again, this not any kind of law that you MUST do this, or that pensions must be split, it is just a way that you CAN do this to cover the amount owed for equalization.

So WHY do YOU think you HAVE to split the pension? Is it because your ex says so?

she acquired 25K in RRSPs prior to our marriage...
If she is allowed or wanting to claim RRSPs that she acquired pre-marriage- can I not do the same?

Yes.

[thefunone]

OK...lol...fair enough on the length of the question...guess it wasn't that quick.
To try to answer some of the questions posed:
Separated in Nov 2011 -House was sold in Feb 2012 - property divided - equal shares on monies gained from the sale of the house. Went our ways- each have since bought new residences.
Had many sessions of back and forth between lawyers and subsequent mediation (almost 2 yrs worth)-where in the end nothing got resolved - we have an arbitration hearing coming up in two weeks.
She and her counsel provided an offer to settle and in my trying to decide what to do (with counsel) I was concerned about this pension matter.

During a two and a half pre marriage co-habitation (Jan 97-Jun 99) my ex worked for a high tech firm and received options - I don't believe that she had ever put them into RRSPs but she is purporting that.
She is seeking an equalization payment of some 30K...
Once married - and with the decline in high tech - those options became worthless. She is claiming their value at the time of marriage-even though now they are useless.
I was/am employed by the Province and when I started working in (1988) began contributing to my pension fund.
On the date of marriage I had accumulated 'x' amount of money in my pension.
I contributed into my pension during the marriage.
My understanding is that she is entitled to half of my pension accrued - from the date of marriage to the date of separation.
While I suspect that her argument is for unjust enrichment - this was where my question had been generated...am I able to claim the portion of my pension accrued prior to the date of marriage on my Net Family Property form?
Thanks Mess fort he reply - always good to get perspectives
Cheers

[lplp]

I am curious on this one also, I am currently on pension, 16 years prior of marriage is towards my pension and 14 was during marriage and 5 years of collecting my pension and now seperated? My understanding and I am probable wrong on this is she is only entilted to the 14 and half of that as i was on pension during marriage .Also the kids live with me full time .

[Rioe]

I am curious on this one also, I am currently on pension, 16 years prior of marriage is towards my pension and 14 was during marriage and 5 years of collecting my pension and now seperated? My understanding and I am probable wrong on this is she is only entilted to the 14 and half of that as i was on pension during marriage .Also the kids live with me full time .

Yes, the amount of pension accrued DURING the marriage (14.5 years) is the part that is divided. This will likely result in your pension payment dropping a bit. Her share will go into a locked-in RRSP which she can draw from when she retires.

And if your children are not independent (under 18, or still in full-time school) your ex will owe you child support for them.

[Rioe]

During a two and a half pre marriage co-habitation (Jan 97-Jun 99) my ex worked for a high tech firm and received options - I don't believe that she had ever put them into RRSPs but she is purporting that.
She is seeking an equalization payment of some 30K...
Once married - and with the decline in high tech - those options became worthless. She is claiming their value at the time of marriage-even though now they are useless.

They had value at time of marriage, but at time of separation, they don't. This would subtract from her net worth. Think of it as if she had $10000 cash on the marriage date, and you both spent it frivolously on the honeymoon. It's gone. She's out $10000.

I was/am employed by the Province and when I started working in (1988) began contributing to my pension fund.
On the date of marriage I had accumulated 'x' amount of money in my pension.
I contributed into my pension during the marriage.
My understanding is that she is entitled to half of my pension accrued - from the date of marriage to the date of separation.
While I suspect that her argument is for unjust enrichment - this was where my question had been generated...am I able to claim the portion of my pension accrued prior to the date of marriage on my Net Family Property form?

Yes, she is entitled to half your pension, just as you are entitled to half of hers, that was accumulated DURING the marriage. So you put down the start value (at marriage date) on your form, and you put down the end value (at separation/valuation date) on your form. The difference is what is divided.


Some made up numbers:

Say you were worth $35k at marriage date, totalling all your assets and subtracting all your debt. Now you are worth $135k, totalling all your assets and subtracting all your debt. If an asset or debt is joint, claim half. if it's solely in your name, claim all. Your net worth during the marriage has increased by $100k.

Say she was worth $50k at marriage date, and is now worth $40k at separation date. She had no pension of her own, or more assets happened to be in your or debts in her name, who knows. So her net worth during the marriage dropped by $10k.

This makes a total net increase of $90k during the marriage. That is divided up equally. So you should be at +$45k each. So you should leave with $80k and she should leave with $95k.

Therefore you have to pay her $55k to make it work out that way. This can be done in many ways. Maybe she keeps the house. Maybe you take on more of the joint debt. Maybe you take most of it out of your pension and she gets a locked-in RRSP. Maybe you keep your whole pension and sell the house and she gets all the cash. However you agree to divide it up is fine.

That's the basic version. Once you have your head wrapped around that, you can look into the exceptions and if they apply in your case.

[mememe]

Great explanation and example. Well written!!! My spouse will get half my pension accrued during 20+ years of marriage. The kicker is agreeing to the value of the pension. I had 2 actuaries calculate mine--once at separation and had to redo it all last year----new rules. You may want to "buy" the person out so that you receive all of your pension cheque.

Question re: CPP how do you determine if it is worth looking into including CPP in the calculations. At what point is it not worth it?

[Rioe]

Question re: CPP how do you determine if it is worth looking into including CPP in the calculations. At what point is it not worth it?

As I understand it, CPP is a special, weird case. CPP can always be divided, even years after the divorce, even if you both agreed not to do so in a separation agreement. If your ex does that to you, the logical thing would be to do it right back. The amounts will probably not be equal. Divide it now, or leave it out of your calculations, and hope for the best, I guess.

[shellshocked22]

To add a little to RIOE's comments with respect to
CPP equalization of credits during marriage....

It depends upon province. Some provinces will honour a SA whereby the spouses agree NOT to equalize CPP credits during marriage but OTHER provinces will NOT honour a formal separation agreement binding the spouses to NOT apply for CPP equalization.

CPP website has a pretty good overview of this....

[smileandwalkaway]

I am in the process of applying for a CCP spilt in Ontario.As it has been explained to me all you need to do is apply for it. This can be done at any time after you have gone your separate ways. The other party does not need to consent. You provide proof of marriage, proof of divorce, and proof of cohabitation if you lived together prior to marriage. CCP accumulated during the time you were together will be split equally.

[mememe]

If you call I assume they will tell you whether their CPP is more than yours? Does the age at which you take our your cpp matter or does it have the value accrued during marriage. Thanks for the information

[mememe]

This case talks about "double dipping" with pension and support.

Flieger v. Adams 2012 NBCA 39
August 03, 2012


spousal support. double dipping. exceptions
SSAG’s. double dipping

[Mess]

If you call I assume they will tell you whether their CPP is more than yours? Does the age at which you take our your cpp matter or does it have the value accrued during marriage. Thanks for the information

You should have a rough idea if your ex earned more than you during the marriage.

In some circumstances, a couple may have earned similar amounts. In such a case of a small difference in income, blending CPP won't make any difference anyway.

If there was a significant difference you would know.

The federal government will take care of calculations. The amount blended is the amount accrued during marriage.

Yes, taking your pension early means less pension paid out per month. Taking your pension later means more pension paid out. This does not affect the calculations.

The calculation is simply based on pensionable earnings. The amount of pensionable earnings of each party will be blended, and each will receive the same pension FOR THOSE YEARS.

When you start receiving your pension, whether at 60, 65, 70, whenever, it will be calculated as though you had the blended income during the years of marriage.

Hopefully that answers your questions.