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  • Rep sports section 7

    My son is playing AA Baseball this year. My ex and I have always split proportional to income. When it comes to tournaments this year will he be responsible for a portion of the hotel and travel costs? I suspect that I will be the one doing all the travel. We have at least 3 US tournaments plus several which will be in Ontario which may or may not require hotels based on location.
    Thanks!

  • #2
    We have it so the parent travelling with the child is responsible for the tournament costs.

    Last year that cost me $4000. It's not proportionate whatsoever.

    Comment


    • #3
      My D is also in a competitive activity. Yes, transportation and stay is s7, as it is required in connection with the activity.

      I pay my proportional share of my D's stay. I do not pay for my ex's costs. So if my ex and D are staying in a hotel for the weekend, I pay my proportional share of 50% of the hotel cost. Same with transportation costs, I pay proportionally on 50% of gas/airfare etc.

      Luckily D's new studio does not travel far, most comp's are local. But our last studio had us flying to Myrtle Beach, driving to NYC, Detroit, Syracuse etc. It cost my ex and I about $5k-$10k in aggregate in transportation/hotel costs annually.

      Comment


      • #4
        Question.
        - Sep agreement states consent in advance
        - Child was not in the sport prior to agreement date
        - Support recipient registers child in house league activity without consent
        - Then claims this as a S7 expense to FRO
        - FRO first grants claim, then actually reads sep agreement and denies claim
        - Ex sues for the expense that was denied by FRO (plus other claims)

        Answer in court should be:

        Comment


        • #5
          "sues" ?



          Do you mean, she filed a motion seeking some money towards the activity in family court?



          Or actually going after you in small-claims court?


          Was there any conversation around this prior, even if you said no?
          How much is "house league" anyway? I don't remember house league being very expensive. Rep costs go up though.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
            "sues" ?



            Do you mean, she filed a motion seeking some money towards the activity in family court?



            Or actually going after you in small-claims court?


            Was there any conversation around this prior, even if you said no?
            How much is "house league" anyway? I don't remember house league being very expensive. Rep costs go up though.
            I have three kids and all were introduced to hockey 3 years after separation. I objected to many reasons including culture, time and cost. To me this should be a normal expense in any case but given the age of the kids maybe not. Complication is she moved the kids about that time to another town and they play all over eastern ontario while I live in Ottawa.
            Two kids have had serious injuries (one of my objections), coaches getting suspended for cussing out refs and all kinds of bullying.
            I am a red blooded Canadian guy but I hate the hockey culture,
            She sued me (after 8 years) for sole custody in part because she did not like that I did not consent.
            Then sent the costs to FRO.
            They denied the claim.
            We will be in court in 2 weeks

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
              My D is also in a competitive activity. Yes, transportation and stay is s7, as it is required in connection with the activity.

              I pay my proportional share of my D's stay. I do not pay for my ex's costs. So if my ex and D are staying in a hotel for the weekend, I pay my proportional share of 50% of the hotel cost. Same with transportation costs, I pay proportionally on 50% of gas/airfare etc.

              Luckily D's new studio does not travel far, most comp's are local. But our last studio had us flying to Myrtle Beach, driving to NYC, Detroit, Syracuse etc. It cost my ex and I about $5k-$10k in aggregate in transportation/hotel costs annually.
              This is interesting. I pay for all travel for my daughter and as you saw above, $4000 for my son last year (my daughter is upwards of $5-6000 a year). I had not even considered that as part of s.7. wow.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                I have three kids and all were introduced to hockey 3 years after separation...


                ...She sued me (after 8 years) for sole custody in part because she did not like that I did not consent.

                Then sent the costs to FRO.
                They denied the claim.
                We will be in court in 2 weeks

                Hockey is a different beast - as it is *so* expensive even at house level. And for 3 kids? $$$


                FRO may have just denied the "costs" as perhaps they deemed it to not be child support related, or the agreement wasn't specific enough for them. FRO can only go by court order/agreement.


                Sorry, does she have sole custody?



                Pretty sure you'll have to split in for the hockey costs, if kids have already been in them for 3 years. Hard to say, not knowing specifics of your agreement and history of it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I refused consent from the start and gave detailed reasons why before the first registration. Expensive sport, travel, bullying, poor role models, injury.
                  One boy has had 2 concussions and ended his season a month ago with a broken collarbone. My daughter has been run more than once from behind.

                  Agreement gives either parent the right to register without consent or if the other parent does not agree to costs if the registering parent pays costs and provides travel.

                  She refused to provide travel so kids put on the pressure and I took them to their games and practices and made it clear in writing that I was not consenting to the cost.

                  We have joint custody with joint decision making and it is very explicit that activities must be by joint written consent in advance.

                  So as usual she makes unilateral decisions (which are specifically not permitted) and the kids end up doing what she wants.

                  Final conference is next week with trial week after. We will see what the judges say

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by beentheredonethis View Post
                    This is interesting. I pay for all travel for my daughter and as you saw above, $4000 for my son last year (my daughter is upwards of $5-6000 a year). I had not even considered that as part of s.7. wow.
                    I read a case on Canlii that provided for theses sorts of expenses as being s7. That said, you may have years of status quo working against you. So be careful on how you proceed. A claim for expenses going forward would likely be successful, but know there is always the chance that it may not be.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                      I read a case on Canlii that provided for theses sorts of expenses as being s7. That said, you may have years of status quo working against you. So be careful on how you proceed. A claim for expenses going forward would likely be successful, but know there is always the chance that it may not be.
                      2012 separation -- no hockey

                      2014 separation agreement - no hockey (see excerpts below)

                      2014 divorce - no hockey

                      2016 - Ex moves kids to location that triples hockey (ALL) transportation for me

                      2016 - one of three was kids registered without consent. Ex provided transportation and also withheld access on more than one occasion for the one child because she found it inconvenient to drive him back and forth. Never asked, just did it.

                      2017 - ex registered all three kids without consent. Ex refused to provide transportation. I in writing stated I am not consenting. Because ex refuses to provide transport kids scream bloody murder so I do it on my residency days. They are now arguing implied consent because i did the driving and watched the games (see paragraph 4.12 below)

                      If hockey pre-dated separation agreement since 3 kids in an expensive sport then probably Section 7.

                      Since no consent in advance and hockey started when agreement was in force then ????

                      I plead normal expenses, not my problem. FRO agreed and denied her claims including implied consent. Otherwise this would be carte blanche for my ex to do as she pleases adn send me the bill.

                      I requested other activities other than hockey (basketball, swimming etc and was ignored.

                      EXCERPTS OF IN FORCE AGREEMENT

                      4.1 XXXX and YYYY shall share joint legal custody of their children, subject to paragraph 4.11 below.

                      4.6 Neither XXXX nor YYYY will schedule an event or activity for a child or the children that takes place on the other parent’s time without first obtaining the other parent’s consent in writing or by e-mail.

                      4.8 XXXX and YYYY will make important decisions about the children's welfare jointly, meaning neither parent can unilaterally make an important decision on behalf of the children, subject to paragraph 4.11 below. XXXX and YYYY agree “important” decisions include including decisions about:
                      (f) Registering the children in sports/activities/lessons that take place on the other parent’s time or impact the other parent financially, subject to paragraph 4.10
                      (g) Any decision having a financial impact on the other parent.
                      (h) Any decision having an impact on the other parent’s time.

                      4.10 Neither party will register the children for activities unless both of them consent to the activity and the cost in writing prior to registering the child, consent not to be unreasonably withheld. If a parent does not object to the activity but is not prepared to pay the cost of the activity or commit his/her time then the other parent may register the child for the activity provided he/she pays the cost and he/she is responsible for taking the child to and from the activity.

                      4.11 The parties must confer with each other and have good faith discussions on all important decisions (set out in paragraph 4.8) relating to the children.

                      4.17 XXXX and YYYY may both attend all the children’s doctors’ and dentists’ appointments, school functions and activities, parent teacher interviews, sporting events and religious ceremonies in which a child is participating that takes place away from the other parent’s home. The parties also mutually commit to maintaining a positive atmosphere at any such mutual attendance so as to insulate the children from any conflict or negative feelings that may exist between the parents. If one parent makes an appointment for the child (doctor, dentist, parent teacher, principal, etc.) he/she will advise the other parent and the other parent may attend. Neither party will attend a child’s doctor or dentist appointment, or parent teacher interview.

                      7.1 XXXX and YYYY will share the children’s special and extra-ordinary expenses in proportion to their NDI’s provided each party provides his or her consent to the expense, in writing, in advance of the expense being incurred. Neither party will unreasonably withhold his or her consent. The parties will determine their proportionate shares based on their previous year’s income as set out in paragraph 9.1 below. For example, the parties’ proportionate share for 2014 will be based on their 2013 NDI’s.

                      8.1 Provided XXXX is paying YYYY full table child support, YYYY shall pay for all costs for the children that are not special or extraordinary including but not limited to:
                      (a) Registered programs or activities that are less than $1,800 in total for all children for each period from September 1 to August 31

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Abba - My post wasn't directed at you. See the quote embedded in my post.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                          Abba - My post wasn't directed at you. See the quote embedded in my post.
                          Ahhh. Ok thank you. Any thoughts on my last post? Appreciate the input.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                            I refused consent from the start and gave detailed reasons why before the first registration. Expensive sport, travel, bullying, poor role models, injury.
                            One boy has had 2 concussions and ended his season a month ago with a broken collarbone. My daughter has been run more than once from behind.

                            Agreement gives either parent the right to register without consent or if the other parent does not agree to costs if the registering parent pays costs and provides travel.

                            She refused to provide travel so kids put on the pressure and I took them to their games and practices and made it clear in writing that I was not consenting to the cost.

                            We have joint custody with joint decision making and it is very explicit that activities must be by joint written consent in advance.

                            So as usual she makes unilateral decisions (which are specifically not permitted) and the kids end up doing what she wants.

                            Final conference is next week with trial week after. We will see what the judges say
                            not a good reason..all that stuff can happen anywhere (school etc) and with any sport that is competitive.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by standing on the sidelines View Post
                              not a good reason..all that stuff can happen anywhere (school etc) and with any sport that is competitive.
                              Is this a personal opinion or is there a legal foundation here?
                              I am hoping for something concrete if possible.
                              Case law, experience etc.

                              Comment

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