Withholding Passport

[vocalfather]

Hey Mess, great advice. Would I also not run the risk of looking like I'm violating the agreement as well?

[standing on the sidelines]

Hey Mess, great advice. Would I also not run the risk of looking like I'm violating the agreement as well?

you wouldn't be looking like you are violating it, you would be. There is a remedy to handle disputes in your agreement and you should follow it. Just because she is being an idiot doesn't mean that you have to follow her example.

[red6419]

If this were me, I would keep the passports, but I would send a registered letter explaining why in a businesslike way. I'm not saying you should do this, you should follow your own judgement, but I have to set a lot of strict boundaries in a situation like this.

She has stated her intention to violate the travel consent clause of the separation agreement, and therefore you feel that she is acting in bad faith and cannot be trusted to return the documents at the specified time.

You are wondering how a judge would see it. They would see that she is wasting the court's time with a ridiculous motion that is unnecessary, and they would see you has having legitimate reason for concern since she has stated in texts - which you have printed out and are providing in a fashion that is admissible evidence - that she intends on violating the separation agreement on an issue that is directly related to the passports.

When a party to an agreement acts in bad faith, or threatens to, then you are not at fault for taking reasonable steps to protect yourself.

Regarding mediation, I think that this is a black and white issue, there is nothing to mediate, you have the issue settled in the separation agreement.

That being said, using a session of OPEN mediation to get her attitude and demands out in the open, in a way that is verifiable, witnessed, and recorded, can help you immeasurably down the road. Don't look at the mediation as negotiation so much as looking at it as a chance to get evidence that she is renegging on the agreement and being aggressive.

What Mess said.

I wouldn't send the passports back either. Bad faith and all, she's clearly stated she no longer agrees to the clause in the agreement about travel and you're protecting yourself. In this case I do not agree with the "two wrongs don't make a right" argument.

[Mess]

you wouldn't be looking like you are violating it, you would be. There is a remedy to handle disputes in your agreement and you should follow it. Just because she is being an idiot doesn't mean that you have to follow her example.

And what would be the result of that? What would be the judge's decision for a parent in this case, considering the mal fide?

[vocalfather]

I would obviously want to agree with both yourself Mess & red6419 hoping a judge uses common sense and discretion. I think I'll see how the rest of the week plays out and goes from there. Either way, she is a loose cannon. Mess, you helped me a couple of months ago with a question re: CCTB and the fact that the government wanted to challenge her getting all of it. Now they have frozen her benefits and are causing her issues so I know she's stirring the pot with this as well. She's looking to be a troublemaker. I'm not trying to add to that fire but I believe your idea of sending a registered letter is a good one.

[DontGiveUp]

It has happened to me as well. Ex for no reason and in front of the kids no less told me she would not allow me to travel outside of the country again. I had taken the children once on a vacation to the U.S. without any issue or documented issue. She was keeper of the passports so I brought forth a motion on the issue, we had a settlement conference a week before the motion, the judge told her to go come to agreement with me to avoid the motion and we did.

You'd be best to return the passports when they are required to go back to her, show that you are the one following the agreement, I agree with blink, it has been shown mediation won't work on this matter, just bring forth a motion a.s.a.p. A judge won't tolerate it. You'll win

[vocalfather]

The bigger issue is not so much the passports but the actual signing of a document to travel. She's flat out said she won't sign it and this isn't the first time. There shouldn't have to be a motion everytime we want to travel. Our agreement is quite simple - when the other wants to travel and it's their week with the kids, you sign the form and they travel with the kids - you simply provide them with where you are going, contact info to reach them, etc. There is this standard where she feels she can just simply go against the separation agreement and its wrong. I think I'm going to go the route of the registered letter and see what happens. I am supposed to have the passports back in 1.5 months anyway but I'm quite sure I would never get them back.

[DontGiveUp]

Then she is in contempt of court order and you bring forth a motion and she gets her hand slapped and gets nailed with the costs. I don't see how a registered letter is going to help more than a motion for contempt.

[FB_]

I would send her an email and a registered letter attaching the travel consent. Ask for it to be returned within 30 days. If she she refuses you then have what you need to file a motion asking for her consent to be withdrawn.

Until you get her refusal you don't have a leg to stand on.

[vocalfather]

I have already gotten a refusal by text. She has said she won't allow me to renew my daughter's passport and won't ever let me travel. I was supposed to cross to Buffalo with them for a few days and she is refusing. She again is now all of a sudden requesting the passports (it is her year to have them) but I will never get them back when we are to travel.

[DontGiveUp]

Makes sense then. Sorry I thought I had read that she had already refused in another documented means. Yes do the registered letter first, then when she does not respond, the motion.

[Canadaguy]

I would send her an email and a registered letter attaching the travel consent. Ask for it to be returned within 30 days. If she she refuses you then have what you need to file a motion asking for her consent to be withdrawn.

Until you get her refusal you don't have a leg to stand on.

This is really good advise...the judge will slap her for not consenting and having the matter brought to court.

Just a thought...can you have two physical passports? Can you re-apply as if the first set was lost and that you need a new one? Or will this reqiuire re-application and her signature again? Would the old (ala "lost") one be considered invalid if she tried to use it?

[dad2bandm]

If you need to pursue court, as a remedy (it seems likely, that you will need to at some point), then you will need more than a "text refusal". It's best to have documented, in writing, refusals (or your attempts at resolving this too). You want to look like the reasonable parent, where both parents are not being reasonable.

Registered letter is a good method, even if your ex refuses to respond at all, on the matter, because then you can at least show (via the registered letter), that you brought this up with ex on x number of occasions.

Perhaps in the process as well, your ex will relent, and issue is solved. Likely not, but hey, it could happen.

[dad2bandm]

...
Just a thought...can you have two physical passports? Can you re-apply as if the first set was lost and that you need a new one? Or will this reqiuire re-application and her signature again? Would the old (ala "lost") one be considered invalid if she tried to use it?

Good question.
I don't believe you can have two physical passports at the same time, legally, for the same person.

I will say this. I know of someone who could not get a passport from ex either. Their "custody" was also similar, in that both parents were supposed to have access to passports, and they shared joint custody.

The parent who could not obtain the passport from the other, simply advised the passport office, that he did not know the status of the passport, and reported it lost. Because his custody allowed it, he was able to get a replacement passport, cutting out the other uncooperative parent.

I would not recommend this, as I don't know the legality of this, if the other parent decided to cause trouble, but it was an avenue they explored, and it worked, for them.

[vocalfather]

I would never report it lost. Totally bad ramifications there potentially. One of the passports is due for renewal in early December and I'd obviously like to get that done for her but Mom is being difficult for no reason. Sometimes I wish parents could remove their emotions/issues from it and just see what will benefit the kids. There really should be no issue in all of this at all. Very sad.