Matrimonial Home After I Move Out

[Dee1973]

FB / Dinkyface - totally agree with you both that it's probably not going anywhere especially if it does eventually get sold and she's only their exclusively for a month or two.

Obviously she is pushing to CS to start the next day I move out on November 8. This would be about $700. So if I present it as though I'm serious should I say (in a very nice way of course . That 50% rent is $X, minus ownership costs i.e. 50% insurance and property tax and you pay 100% of usage costs (i.e. hydro, nat gas, water).

But basically whatever that amount works out to will be offset against CS?

Or will this approach be looked upon badly?

[Mess]

Dee you have answered your own question. If there is no order for exclusive possession, make your claim according to the Courts of Justice Act. If it were me i would seek back payments through small claims court, which is cheaper, or even free if you are comfortable doing it yourself. Then negotiate ongoing payments.

[FB_]

FB / Dinkyface - totally agree with you both that it's probably not going anywhere especially if it does eventually get sold and she's only their exclusively for a month or two.

Obviously she is pushing to CS to start the next day I move out on November 8. This would be about $700. So if I present it as though I'm serious should I say (in a very nice way of course . That 50% rent is $X, minus ownership costs i.e. 50% insurance and property tax and you pay 100% of usage costs (i.e. hydro, nat gas, water).

But basically whatever that amount works out to will be offset against CS?

Or will this approach be looked upon badly?

As a note my CS started the first of the month following the date of move out. But this was agreed too.

[Dee1973]

Thanks FB_ - that's what I told her that CS would start December 1.

Mess, I guess what I'm trying to understand is let's say whatever I determine or try to negotiate in regards to ongoing payments when she has exclusive enjoyment of the home (lets say it works out to $800) but CS is $700 (i owe her).

Can or should I tie to the two together and say net you owe me $100? Obvious rationale, is if pay her $700 on December 1 the odds of me getting anything from her (i.e. $800) is a snow balls chance in hell. I think as FB_ and Dinkyface have pretty much stated as well.

[FB_]

Thanks FB_ - that's what I told her that CS would start December 1.

Mess, I guess what I'm trying to understand is let's say whatever I determine or try to negotiate in regards to ongoing payments when she has exclusive enjoyment of the home (lets say it works out to $800) but CS is $700 (i owe her).

Can or should I tie to the two together and say net you owe me $100? Obvious rationale, is if pay her $700 on December 1 the odds of me getting anything from her (i.e. $800) is a snow balls chance in hell. I think as FB_ and Dinkyface have pretty much stated as well.

No you cannot do that. CS is for the children. Money owed to you by her is hers and cannot be offset by CS.

[limer]

If you do move out leaving your ex to pay the bills while she is still living in the house make sure that the utility bills are expressly in her name. You don't want a situation where she doesn't pay the utility bills leaving you liable for them. I would alert the appropriate utility companies as to the situation.

As for offsetting CS against those bills. Her bills to maintain the home will be her bills. Part of CS calculations is to provide a roof over your childrens' heads.

An order for exclusive possession of the house can be made on consent. On such an order until sale you'd want to "negotiate" terms of maintenance of the house.

[Mess]

From FB's link....

In approximately the same time of Griffiths, Justice Quinn of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice also reviewed the case law and outlined its own list of relevant factors in Higgins v. Higgins:
(1) The conduct of the non-occupying spouse, including the failure to pay support;
(2) The conduct of the occupying spouse, including the failure to pay support;
(3) Delay in making the claim;
(4) The extent to which the non-occupying spouse has been prevented from having access to his or her equity in the home;
(5) Whether the non-occupying spouse moved for the sale of the home and, if not, why not;
(6) Whether the occupying spouse paid the mortgage and other carrying charges of the home;
(7) Whether children resided with the occupying spouse and, if so, whether the non-occupying spouse paid, or was able to pay, child support;
(8) Whether the occupying spouse has increased the selling value of the property;
(9) Ouster is not required.

subsection (1) that I bolded is something you should keep in mind.

My suggestion if you go forward is to NOT do this on a verbal agreement.

For a written agreement you should do a spreadsheet showing support owed, a breakdown of monthly costs for the house that should be shared as joint owners, a breakdown of the monthly costs for the house that should be the responsibility of the occupent, the fair market rent that the house could achieve if both of you moved out, and the housing costs for the non-occupant (you.)

Even if you don't work out the $$ to the penny, you should both sign off on this agreed financial breakdown. If it goes to court later, this financial analysis will a big part of what steers the decision.

You also need the agreement in writing because she may go after retro support later and you need to clearly show that this was a mutual agreement that CS was in fact paid through the setoff.

IMHO:

For a rental house, it is ordinarily the tennant's responsibility to pay for utilities and basic upkeep (cleaning, yard maintainence, etc., as well as contents insurance.) It is the owners' responsibility to cover taxes, property insurance, capital replacement and major repairs.

Your ex should be paying a fair market value rent. Let's say this rent is $1000. This would be split by the two of you as co-owners, so she pays you 50%.

She should be paying her own utitlites and maintainence costs. This should not be entered in the tally.

You should be splitting the "Owners' costs" I listed above. If the house is fully paid for, let's say these are $300 per month.

So, ($1000/2) - ($300/2) = $350 owing to you.

If this were me, I would pay the full CS because if there is a court order later, you want to be able to show the cancelled cheques for the proper amount.

I would present to her a spreadsheet regarding the occupation rent owed, and I would seek the amount later in the equalization payment. This would be to cover me against any claim for retro child support.

[Dee1973]

Hi Mess and all,

So since the EX and I have been on reasonable speaking terms of late, I initiated this discussion yesterday in regards to expenses once I move out.

1. Usage costs - utilities, basically said these are 100% yours because it based on usage and I'm not here to use so I would obviously not pay. She had no issue with this.

2. Ownership costs - home insurance, property tax, basically 50 / 50% because this is the cost of jointly owning a home.

3. Then the tough part, occupational rent. I explained that she will receiving 100% enjoyment of an asset we both own so I will need to be compensated for that and their our two options.

Option 1 - half of fair market rent OR
Option 2 - my 50% equity of $X times what a 5 year loan rate would be because essentially she is borrowing my equity.

Finally that regardless of option agreed to I would deduct 50% of ownership costs and that is what she would owe me every month. We could then offset against CS.

This is where things went terribly wrong - her response was basically screw you buddy. And basically that if I did not pay full child support amount on December 1 voluntarily she would go to FRN and have my wages garnished.

So what now? Do I assume like everything else that I'm "sorry out of luck".

I didn't even get into the fact that her shelter costs without occupational rent her shelter costs would be 7% of her net disposible income whereas mine would be 63%.

So again, what now? Thoughts from the forum would be greatly appreciated as usual.

[FB_]

Hi Mess and all,

So since the EX and I have been on reasonable speaking terms of late, I initiated this discussion yesterday in regards to expenses once I move out.

1. Usage costs - utilities, basically said these are 100% yours because it based on usage and I'm not here to use so I would obviously not pay. She had no issue with this.

2. Ownership costs - home insurance, property tax, basically 50 / 50% because this is the cost of jointly owning a home.

3. Then the tough part, occupational rent. I explained that she will receiving 100% enjoyment of an asset we both own so I will need to be compensated for that and their our two options.

Option 1 - half of fair market rent OR
Option 2 - my 50% equity of $X times what a 5 year loan rate would be because essentially she is borrowing my equity.

Finally that regardless of option agreed to I would deduct 50% of ownership costs and that is what she would owe me every month. We could then offset against CS.

This is where things went terribly wrong - her response was basically screw you buddy. And basically that if I did not pay full child support amount on December 1 voluntarily she would go to FRN and have my wages garnished.

So what now? Do I assume like everything else that I'm "sorry out of luck".

I didn't even get into the fact that her shelter costs without occupational rent her shelter costs would be 7% of her net disposible income whereas mine would be 63%.

So again, what now? Thoughts from the forum would be greatly appreciated as usual.

She absolutely can take you to FRO.... You MUST pay her the exact amount of your child support as required. You need that proof just in case she tries something funny. Child Support and Equalization are two separate issues and need to be treated as such.

[Mess]

Yes, I agree with FB_.

I tried to stress this earlier. Not paying full CS will put you at risk. It doesn't matter if it is offset by something else, she can take it to court and have full support paid.

Your best offer would be:

1. Pay full CS;
2. She pays utilities;
3. a) She pays full mortgage costs, in lieu of occupation rent, and do the accounting later to tally who may owe who;
   b) You pay mortgage 50/50 and tally occupation rent later.

[DowntroddenDad]

She absolutely can take you to FRO.... You MUST pay her the exact amount of your child support as required. You need that proof just in case she tries something funny. Child Support and Equalization are two separate issues and need to be treated as such.

She can take you to FRO no matter what. As long as there is a signed and witnessed separation agreement, or a court order for support, she can unilaterally ask FRO to take over collection. It happened to me. She can do it at any time, so I wouldn't think of it as happening over one issue.

[dinkyface]

Yes, I agree with FB_.

I tried to stress this earlier. Not paying full CS will put you at risk. It doesn't matter if it is offset by something else, she can take it to court and have full support paid.

Your best offer would be:

1. Pay full CS;
2. She pays utilities;
3. a) She pays full mortgage costs, in lieu of occupation rent, and do the accounting later to tally who may owe who;
   b) You pay mortgage 50/50 and tally occupation rent later.

But there are no mortgage costs. So even if she covers ALL other house-related costs, it is still not a fair split. Which is why the idea of her paying interest on a 'loan' of 50% market value - this would be in lieue of mortgage interest costs.

Agree with all comments on keeping CS separate.

Just curious, what kind of parenting-time arrangement do you have?

[Dee1973]

So consensus seems to be can't tie CS to equilization. We do not currently have a separation agreement or court order for support. So can she still unilaterally ask FRO to take over collection?

Mess, there is no mortgage - hence the majority of our household equity tied up in the house. So basically she get to live there for $300 - $400 a month (utilities + 50% ownership costs) which works out to 7% of her after tax income and get to live on my own with shelter costs working out to 63% of net disposable income. Beautiful world we live in....

At best I might be able to get her to pay 100% ownership costs in lieu of occupational rent but again without a mortgage this isn't much.

I guess that means I pay her CS beginning Dec 1 and then send her a spreadsheet every month with running tally of occupational rent tally and hope someone cares in the future as part of Net Family Property Equilization?

[Dee1973]

Dinkyface I was replying before I say your post. I was essentially saying the same thing - there is no mortgage so even if she covers ALL householded expenses it only comes out to:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 211pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=280 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 146pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 7094" width=194><COL style="WIDTH: 65pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3145" width=86><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 146pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17 width=194></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 65pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl24 width=86>Monthly</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17>Home Insurance</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl25 x:num="100"> $ 100.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17>Hydro</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl25 x:num="100"> $ 100.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17>Water</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl25 x:num="50"> $ 50.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17>Natural Gas</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl25 x:num="100"> $ 100.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17>Property Tax</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl25 x:num="250" x:fmla="=3000/12"> $ 250.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl25></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" height=18>Total Carrying Costs</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8" class=xl26 x:num="600" x:fmla="=SUM(B2:B7)"> $ 600.00 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

It only comes out to $600 - anyone know of a 2000 square foot house you can live in for $600 a month while you collect $1,600 a month in rent from a rental condo you were suppose to move into?

We have shared 50 / 50% custody and access to answer your question. IMHO this would effect my ability to provide an equal standard of living because I wouldn't be a wash in cash every month while the mat home isn't sold. Never mind the lack of incentive for her to sell even though it's been on the market for two months now...

[dad2bandm]

FRO...will need a signed or court ordered agreement in order to garnish. That is their authority to garnish your wages from your place of employment, as oppose to the pap that comes out of your EX' trap. * See DTD's post above*

Yes. FRO needs the order to base their enforcement off (garnishment from a pay cheque doesn't happen automatically - you can pay FRO directly through other means, instead, if you wish).

In your case, you say you have no agreement or order, therefore, FRO would not be involved.

(FRO also needs the order to be clear enough, so they know what to enforce. That is usually the case, but if one had a court order, that was vague to what payments should happen (or not happen), they they may still not be able to enforce, or will only enforce what is clear to them). They only act on direction from your order).