Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

My lawyer bill is being assessed

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • My lawyer bill is being assessed

    Hello,

    I have a date to have my lawyer bill assessed. It is actually my lawyer's firm who is having it assessed because I have been unable to pay the bill, however, I was saving up to have it assessed myself becasue it is outrageous.

    I have spent close to 30k and have gotten as far as a case conference. My motion was adjourned which seems close to 10 times and never did get heard. I have since parted ways with my lawyer due to running out of money. I have 9k outstanding.

    The only thing I can really contest is the billing for emails, because I can't really argue how long it takes to write a factum or a motion or conference with other staff. I have all my emails and I have matched them with the bills. I am being charged for 18 mins on an email which takes a minute to read. Is this normal or is this gouging? Do I have a case? Should I be copying the emails and bringing them to the assessment? Is 30k for as far as a case conference over the top? or am I going to lose and owe the 9k?

    Any thoughts? Any tips on how to argue this?

    Also, how do I address the assessor? Sir? Your Worship?....

    Thank you for your help

  • #2
    I believe hadenough took a lawyer to task for an outrageous bill and was successful. Perhaps send a Private Message.

    I think it is a good indicator that the lawyer's own firm is having the account assessed. I'm actually quite surprised by this.

    Even at 18 minutes per email you would have to have sent a considerable amount of emails to amass a large bill. One case conference? What was the lawyer's hourly rate? How many times did you meet and call this person?

    Do keep us posted.

    Comment


    • #3
      The assessor was called a Registrar, in my matter. Come prepared with copies of all your bills from the firm and your emails. Have these in triplicate. Organize them into tabs w/an index. One copy for you, one to have on hand if the lawyer from the firm doesn't have some of the materials you will refer to, and one for the Registrar. There won't be any passing of ie: one (original) document to show all parties. Besides, you want to retain your own original copies.

      In my matter, on the first date (I was the one who filed/served to have the bill assessed) there were several other parties there at 10a.m. Many of them were adjourned. When it came time for my matter, the Registrar asked that I and my (previous) lawyer step out into the hallway to discuss briefly between ourselves, if we could come to some agreement. We could not. The matter was adjourned to a date about a month away.

      On that day, there was just one other matter being heard, and by 11a.m it was my turn. Once again, we were told to step outside of the Courtroom to see if we could settle our matter before proceeding. Once again, we could not. I was there until 4pm, (they broke for lunch and two 15 minute breaks). In my matter, the lawyer came largely unprepared and offered little in the way of 'responses' when it came to what RESULT had been achieved ie: by the "reading of" x amount of emails. For the most part, as was plainly obvious, the emails billed for were "read" but there was no corresponding RESULT or action taken (on the lawyer's part) that achieved *any* RESULT. Those were "disallowed" by the Registrar in the end, to the tune of over 7k.

      If you have any correspondence between yourself and the LSUC, bring those too (3 copies). In the end, if you are not successful you will be ordered to pay the bill(s) in question, plus all fees for the lawyer's time in Court that day.

      There is some information to be found on the internet and books with respect to having a lawyer's bill assessed. What you need to establish is, that there was/is no result arising out of the items/actions/inactions you have been billed for. Remember to have extra copies, be organized and ready to assert your position. The Assessors are fully aware that some lawyers do overcharge and they also realize that the people that stand before them are not seasoned professionals.
      Last edited by hadenough; 01-09-2013, 10:21 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Quote by arabian "I think it is a good indicator that the lawyer's own firm is having the account assessed. I'm actually quite surprised by this."

        The firm is having it assessed because they are trying to collect on it. Most likely all of it.

        OP if you can find out from your Courthouse which days these matters are heard (ie: on Tuesdays) there's nothing to prevent you from sitting in and observing other matters. Of course, the fact that you likely have a job might interfere w/this but if you do have a flexible schedule, no one will stop you from going to observe how information is presented and dealt with, in these matters.

        PS: unless the firm did provide one in writing - be sure to mention that you were not given any letter of intent by the firm as to how your matter was 'progressing' and that you were (if that is so) left in the dark so to speak, unsure of the direction things were going in. I just remembered that the Registrar in my matter asked if I'd rec'd such a letter. The answer was no, I had not. PS: were a lot of your emails left unanswered?
        Last edited by hadenough; 01-09-2013, 10:28 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          There are some good reference links in this article I found on the internet. Perhaps worth checking out: No absolute time bar for assessment of accounts | Canadian Lawyer Magazine

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you hadenough,

            I wasn't given any letter of intent or information on how this case was progressing, that I can recall.

            Unfortunately I can't sit in on an assessment because its on Tuesday.

            Most of my emails were answered, the problem is that I was charged minimum 12 mins for each one, no where in the retainer does it say that the minimum billing would be 12 mins. No where did it state that billing would be in increments of 6 mins, is this suppose to be common knowledge?

            Should I copy every single email, or just the outrageous ones? Also do you address the assessor as 'mr. registrar'?

            Hi arabian,

            Yes there is a ton of emails. I never knew what was going on or what I should do, so I would ask. I never knew what was pertinent information, so I gave what I could.
            My lawyer never told me just to sit back and collect everything and maybe see her once in a while. I was being short changed with my parenting time and was very stressed out about it.

            Today I can see that a lot of what the lawyers were bickering about means nothing in the grand picture. I wish I knew then, what I know now. I wish my lawyer would have said, "don't worry about it, ask for your equal share of time with the kids and if she doesn't give it to you it will look bad on her" (considering a 50/50 split was endorsed by our marriage counselor, who also counseled the kids a couple of times and suggested the parenting schedule)

            My lawyer was $350/hr. I hardly spoke with my lawyer. I always spoke with her assistant. That caused problems too. Some of my billing lines were to correct mistakes. Something like our birthdays being switched. I would email to tell them the mistake and I would be charged 12min minimum for the correction! It was their mistake, they had a record of everyone's birthdate.

            Comment


            • #7
              My previous lawyer has billed me .10 of an hour for every email read. This works out to be 6 minutes. I think one tenth of an hour is the minimum they will bill.

              I don't know if it is standard but that is certainly what happened for me.

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't know how voluminous your emails are but certainly bring a lot of what you deem to be the pertinent ones, and have copies.

                I believe Registrar will do but maybe some of them prefer "Your Honour" - I'm not sure. Try and relax, as they know you're not Johnny Cochrane calibre

                Good Luck and let us know how it worked out. I don't know if there's a 'fixed rate' alotted for review of emails but you can check the LSUC's site for the Lawyer's Code of Conduct (although I'm not a huge fan of the LSUC).

                Maintain your composure, arrive organized and you will definitely have an opportunity to speak, and lay out the facts that you are basing your opposition to the bill on. Bring a notepad, make notes of what the lawyer is saying to keep you focused and to help prepare your possible questions/answers.

                You will also have an opportunity to ask the lawyer questions. So think about that as well. In my case, he (lawyer) lied outright and I'm thinking that the Registrar saw right through him. All in all, it did not go very well for him and he had over 25 yrs experience in his area of Law. I think it's quite likely you will get a reduction in your bill. It is very unusual to have the entire amount owing wiped out. I was of course very pleased with the Registrar's ruling. It was my first and only time ever having a legal bill assessed.

                I was not *on the stand* - nor was the lawyer - it was informal in that sense. I sat at the right table of the Courtroom the entire time and my (former) lawyer sat to my left. In your matter it will be opposite as they are the "applicants" on the matter. I hope this info has helped to prepare you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you, it does help.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is the update.

                    I went to court and my name isn't on the list. The clerk at the front says my lawyer will have to get the file when she gets here. Well my lawyer never shows up. The assessor deals with the adjournments and the uncontested then looks at me and asks what I was there for. I explain I'm not on the list but I have an order to have my bill assessed. The assessor looks at the order and shrugs and says if your lawyer isn't here there is nothing I can do, I can't help you.

                    So as I am leaving, a lawyer who was leaving at the same time says to me that it isn't right. He also explained that the assessor can't do anything unless I ask, and he said I should go back in ask for the file to be sent up and then proceed.

                    So I go back in and speak to the clerk during a recess, she says to call my lawyers firm and see whats going on. I do that and they say they thought it was on the 28th. Their requisition stated 28th, the order stated the 14th. They were going to send a student to adjourn the date. Student shows up, I want to contest the adjournment because its not my mistake but alas, adjournment granted.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What an incompetent law firm. Track your time and make scrupulous notes of this (including names of everyone).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I can't really argue how long it takes to write a factum or a motion or conference with other staff.
                        Yes you can. If it took four hours to put together a five paragraph document, that is not reasonable. As a rule of thumb, one hour per page can be a fair rate. If your case conference brief was copy pasted from the Application, the time taken should reflect same.

                        I am being charged for 18 mins on an email which takes a minute to read. Is this normal or is this gouging?
                        It is prudent to inquire as to firm billing practice. Smaller law firms tend to bill by 0.1 hours, although some firms count time by 0.25 hours while others have a minimum time of 0.3 per action.

                        Is 30k for as far as a case conference over the top?
                        It depends what was done. That does seem excessive, however.

                        I was charged minimum 12 mins for each one, no where in the retainer does it say that the minimum billing would be 12 mins. No where did it state that billing would be in increments of 6 mins, is this suppose to be common knowledge?
                        Billing is (almost universally) done by fractions of hours, with 0.1 being the most common among family lawyers.

                        If the lawyer is charging a minimum of 0.2 for each e-mail, that is likely firm policy to account for the time taken to stop current work, open filing cabinet, figure out what, if anything, is going on, read e-mail and (if necessary) respond to e-mail, print e-mail and place in file, return file to filing cabinet and, finally, turn to the next task.

                        I expect somewhere in the retainer agreement is a clause that states that "I understand that I will be charged your usual rates for professional services rendered" and another stating "these fees are subject to adjustment at the discretion of the lawyer". When reviewing the agreement, that would be the point when a client should ask a lawyer what, exactly, the usual rates are and how billing works.

                        My lawyer never told me just to sit back and collect everything and maybe see her once in a while. I was being short changed with my parenting time and was very stressed out about it.
                        While not likely to garner sympathy at the assessment, in negotiations you may wish to point out that your bill ran so high as a result of poor client management.

                        Some of my billing lines were to correct mistakes.
                        Document it.

                        My previous lawyer has billed me .10 of an hour for every email read. This works out to be 6 minutes. I think one tenth of an hour is the minimum they will bill.

                        I don't know if it is standard
                        It is, unless the minimum charge is more.

                        I believe Registrar will do
                        Madam Registrar or Mr. Registrar; similar to the address of a master.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by OrleansLawyer View Post
                          I expect somewhere in the retainer agreement is a clause that states that "I understand that I will be charged your usual rates for professional services rendered" and another stating "these fees are subject to adjustment at the discretion of the lawyer". When reviewing the agreement, that would be the point when a client should ask a lawyer what, exactly, the usual rates are and how billing works.
                          Isn't there something about contracts need to be explained and understood in order to be binding? For instance in your quote above, while it states 'I understand that I will be charged your usual rates..." if it doesn't specify that the usual rates are per 6mins at a minimum of 12 mins, yet it DOES specify that hourly rates are $300, wouldn't that be misleading? Why would anyone ask wht the usual rates are when they assume it is $300/hr, why would anyone expect that there would be a minimum charge if it isn't mentioned?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            sorry another question.

                            If I was to ask for costs, do I specify the amount I am asking and why? When do I bring this up? After the ruling?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If you have retained a lawyer for over a year, received numerous bills from same lawyer, it would be assumed that you were aware of and agreed to the terms of the retainer. In other words, you had plenty of time to ask and receive clarification for the bills.

                              Comment

                              Our Divorce Forums
                              Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                              Working...
                              X