Truisms Exposed?: The difficulty with the term “abuse”... (Case Law)

[Rioe]

your right is to know the law not the people on whom the law was applied to.

Big precedents become known by their names though. Roe vs Wade anyone?

[Berner_Faith]

Umm...last time I checked, Canlii does not require you to log in or anything, so yes children could very well access it if they went looking for it. No it doesn't show up on Google, but if they knew the website they could access all the case law they wanted.

[Tayken]

you should not use people's name in this forum. it does not help in anything. this topic should be deleted.

Health,

1. The use of the quotes from CanLII on this site and how they are presented are consistent with their terms of use: CanLII - Terms of Use

2. Lawyers often in their own writing cite case law directly. For example the Shaw v. Shaw case which deals with a similar matter of false allegations of "domestic violence":

The Family Law Consequences of a Criminal Domestic Violence Conviction | Toronto Criminal Law Blog

Here is another example from another law firm:

Houle v. Trottier - Application for Corollary Relief

3. This posting is consistent with this message forum's rules and the source of the public information is cited according to the publisher (CanLII) and this forum's requirements.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

He can use the case law and numbers but i do not believe that using names are relevant to anything.

Health,

Names are relevant enough for the public court system to publish them into the public record. If you have an issue with what was published to CanLII in this matter it is best to take it up with the very Honourable Regional Senior Justice H.M. Piercea rather than the members of this forum whom are well within their rights to publish this public material as law firms, Carswell and other information services will be doing shortly.

In particular this case law is very important and will be cited and included in a number of cases in books of authorities. I know of two cases already where this case law has been provided in their books of authority.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

you think it's fair for the children to read it?

What is not "fair" in this matter to the chlidren is that their "mother argued strenuously that the father has been abusive towards herself and Aniss and therefor disqualified from being the custodial parent." (quote from para 11. of Abdelhamid Tayebi v. Salima Oukachbi, 2013 ONSC 6960 (CanLII))

How did this parent's conduct help the child in question? How did doing this demonstrate the child's "best interests"? How does this kind of conduct demonstrate any respect for the other parent who equally loves the child in question who composes half of that child?

It is psychological abuse to a child to make false allegations of intimate partner abuse in order to "win" in court. It is psychological abuse to make false allegations.

canlii you need to enter the name to access the case, it does not show automatically on google.

Feel free to use the CanLII free text search located here to locate the case law:

CanLII - Canadian Legal Information Institute

I often search for the terms "domestic violence", "false allegations", etc in finding (and posting) relevant case law to this forum. I provide a public review service to unrepresented litigants who are facing similar false and psychologically abusive allegations of "domestic violence". This matter simply appeared due to the extreme relevance which no doubt Carswell and other law-reporting services will eventually pick up on and republish themselves in a legal review.

Andrew Fieldstien may even decide to write a blog like he did with the Shaw v. Shaw matter. I tend to be faster than lawyers at finding relevant case law in particular areas of case law because I am vertical in my research to specific topics.

a child cannot access Can LII.

If a child has (a) access to the internet and (b) is familiar with how to use a web browser they can find this case law. It happens quite often and when children become adults they often go to the court house and pull their parents matters and read all the materials that form the public record.

The parent in this matter who made false allegations not only has to face the other parent in what they have done but, may have to one day face their children as adults.

My recommendation to this parent would be to seek help from a psychiatrist who is an expert in disorders of the personality and start working towards a solution rather than continuing down the dangerous path of "emotional reasoning", "projecting blame" and the other patterns of behaviour that created this person's problem.

the administrator should make sure this forum is intended to help people and provide information and advice.

Intersting as the owner of this form ("Jeff") did respond to this thread on 12-30-2013, 01:20 PM and explicitly stated:

Thanks for the informative posts Tayken!

Link to the posting: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...09/#post159450

Good Luck!
Tayken

[health]

a similar issue happened to me in the past when i lost my children to their mother because my work requires me to travel often to put the bread on the table. as a father, i really think that what we should learn is to take the best of things and turn them in our favor, not giving lessons to pepole we do not know.

if you are a good father, you let the parents sort it out and you take the name out which are not relevant in this forum.the case is relevant but who cares about who is who. who knows the truth? isn't it an interim order until a whole investigation happens. my child (13) found my name on the internet, and never spoke to me because of how things were presented. it is just now that the truth came out that he feels guilty about everything. do you think he deserves that because two people hate each other?

how do you know really what happened? are saying that every father that lost the children to the mother are psycho and need help?? something is wrong with the system...

[Tayken]

i do not agree with you.

You are free to do so but Arabian is 100% correct.

actually only ontario uses last names, the rest of the provinces use initials.

That is incorrect again. Arabian demonstrated this fact.

Do you Health understand the concept of "emotional reasoning"?

if people go to court, because i am sure they did not have a choice.

Are you aware of the logical fallacy of a "false dilemma"? You, just like the psychologically abusive mother in this case law we are discussing have the opportunity to choose.

The mother in this matter could have simply told the truth, sought mental health treatment, etc... rather than "going to court" and making what have been found to be "false allegations of abuse" to maliciously manipulate a custody and access situation.

your right is to know the law not the people on whom the law was applied to.

Actually you are incorrect. The reason it is part of the public record is it is how our system of public jurisprudence works in Canada. It is fundamental that the actual parties either by initials or full name be identified.

why do you need to memorize cases?

Because they can be relied upon in other cases. For example, it is clear that the custodial father in this matter provided in his book of authorities the case law from NS that was relied upon. Or the justice was familiar with it already. There are millions of cases in our system of jurisprudence and you can't expect a justice to know them all. Especially ones that are not common knowledge. That is why case law research is very important and lawyers pay companies like Carswell to do it for them.

you read them when you come across and that's all.

Actually, no... Many people will go and order the full record of the case law right from the court house. No doubt that if this case attracts attention by one of the case law reporters at Carswell they will order a full copy to see everything end to end.

If Kirk Makin, the Justice Reporter for the Globe and Mail may pickup the case law, pull the file and publish it in the paper. There is nothing stopping him from doing it either.

and again every case is different.

Actually, no not every case is that different... The system of jurisprudence demonstrates this. For example, the justice in this matter we are discussing relied upon other "similar" cases and even cited them.

People who make false allegations of domestic violence have very well known patterns of behaviour. They are all well known to the courts. Most of them are probably Axis II disordered and need mental health support and treatment rather than a high-conflict court case.

people should be truthful and everything will fall into places with the truth whatever times it takes.

This is often the delusional thinking that false allegers of domestic violence rely upon. That their version of "the truth" is "the truth". As the very Honoruable Madame Justice Mossip stated in Mustapic v. Capin, 2012 ONSC 3208 (CanLII) para. 20:

...there is nothing surprising or unusual about that fact. What is sad for the Court is the amount of time, money, energy, and emotional angst, that these parties have engaged in to convince themselves, the other party, the children, their friends, the professionals involved, and now the Court, that their truth is the “real truth”; that their version of events is what actually happened.

Mustapic v. Capin, 2012 ONSC 3208 (CanLII)
Date: 2012-06-08
Docket: FS-04-052373-01
URL: CanLII - 2012 ONSC 3208 (CanLII)
Citation: Mustapic v. Capin, 2012 ONSC 3208 (CanLII)

It is sad for the children trapped in a matter and who have a parent who makes false allegations of domestic violence is the amount of time, money, energy and emotional angst that this parent in question has engaged in to convince themselves, the other party, the children, their friends, the professionals involved and the court is that "their truth" is the "REAL TRUTH"; that their version of events is what *actually happened*.

Sorry to say, if this parent in this case law continues to not seek mental health help support and treatment only the child will suffer. The child will lose a parent... Love does not cure all... especially possible Axis II disorders of the personality... that requires a properly trained mental health professional and a patient who wants to get better.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[health]

when i lost my children and i was treated as a second hand parent, i promisd myself that i will never believe what the law says. if you have a better lawyer you will win no matter what. i was paying the mother child support so she can use it to fight me in court. i had no money left to even get an ok lawey as she took everything from me.

my children choose me now because i was thier father and she never took that from me.

when it comes to that case: where is the evidence that the father was not really abusive? i didn't see anything in that case law. the judge simply assumed that because the mother presisted in saying she was abused so that should be untrue. that should be considered false allegations.

if i have to do it all over again, i would've done everything differently starting with having my own defense not using case laws and people's advice on what to do.

guys, fight for changing the legal system not for going back to the past cases and cite them over and over. we are equal parents unless proven otherwise. i am a proud father of 2 children who love me now and respect me for what i did and for what i didn't do.

[Tayken]

a similar issue happened to me in the past when i lost my children to their mother because my work requires me to travel often to put the bread on the table.

I doubt this story. One only has to read your limited postings on this website to know you are not a male.

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...42/#post163435

what are your thoughts on abused women punished by the court for coming forward with their abuse during custody battles?

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...42/#post163445

lately i found lots of real abused women pay for the other women who made false accusations of abuse. i agree that those women should even be sent to jail for their lies but would n't be fair for a truly abused woman with no choice to get justice at the end. the legal system should be specialized in this matter so no victim will be victimized again. a smart judge will make the difference unless they are too busy rushing over their cases to finish their day.

as a father, i really think that what we should learn is to take the best of things and turn them in our favor, not giving lessons to pepole we do not know.

Firstly, you are not a father. See the above quotes as my evidence.

There is a common quote that justices throw at people who make false allegations of domestic violence: "Lies have short legs, they don't carry you very far." This mother in the matter being discussed learned this lesson the very hard way unfortunately for the child in question's sake.

if you are a good father, you let the parents sort it out and you take the name out which are not relevant in this forum.

Again, the discussion is very relevant to this forum. You should read more about this forum and the threads prior to making such broad statements.

the case is relevant but who cares about who is who. who knows the truth?

The only person who seems to have this issue of caring about "who is who" is you "Health". Most posters generally don't come in with these concerns and the only other time it has happened that I can recall is when it was one of the litigants.

See the thread: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...tml#post120307

isn't it an interim order until a whole investigation happens

More important that it is posted to CanLII. What you don't understand Health is that this one was so important that even as a temporary matter it was posted. Similar to the Shaw v. Shaw case.

In fact, it gives significantly more weight in my humble opinion that it is an order resulting from a motion hearing. In fact, it is incredibly rare because the mother's conduct was so material that the justice was able to on an intern motion make a finding of a material change and to make a temporary order while the OCL was investigated.

Personally, I am disappointed that the OCL took this case on when both parents are highly educated and well employed and could retain a private assessor under Section 30.

my child (13) found my name on the internet, and never spoke to me because of how things were presented.

This is more than likely a lie.

it is just now that the truth came out that he feels guilty about everything. do you think he deserves that because two people hate each other?

I doubt this is at all truthful.

how do you know really what happened?

No one does. Not even a judge. See the case law I provided you from one of the most senior and respected Family Law Justices in Ontario. The Honourable Madame Justice Mossip. She addresses the "truth" and "what really happens" and provides insight well beyond anything I could ever provide in a response to you.

are saying that every father that lost the children to the mother are psycho and need help??

I do not understand the context of this question at all. The context of this thread is about a mother, whom made false allegations of domestic abuse lost custody to a father.

something is wrong with the system...

What though?

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

the moderator should remove the names but they should feel free to use any case law.

You can take it up with Jeff. He already posted to this thread. See my previous response to you and the quote and link to that message.

since everybody is so open,why shouldn't we use our real names then. why not?

Because we are not a part of the public system of jurisprudence and this system is not governed by the rules of public records. Simple enough for you? In addition this site is owned and operated by a private citizen (Jeff) and he makes up the Rules not you.

they will all be used in case law one day, isn't the reason we are looking at this forum?

There are many reasons use this form. It appears your whole sole purpose is to have possibly your name removed from case law that is properly cited on this website and on CanLII. Again, if this is the case I recommend you bring the matter to the attention of the Justice presiding over the matter to correct the situation and make an order to the effect. None has been named and other than your own personal lamenting about the topic nothing will be done.

You seem to have similar issues of control that the mother in this matter has.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

when i lost my children and i was treated as a second hand parent

Again, I don't believe this statement from you.

i promisd myself that i will never believe what the law says.

Well, this is probably why you lost your children. You should become aware of the law and work with the law and not against it. That is called "conflict" by the way and courts don't like people who are "conflicted".

if you have a better lawyer you will win no matter what.

Really? What about this matter where a father, unrepresented, won a 17 day trail, sole custody, majority access and a monumental (and often cited) costs award against the other party who had a lawyer.

2011 ONSC 7476 (CanLII)

Your black and white thinking of "no matter what" doesn't serve you well and is a cognitive distortion.

i was paying the mother child support so she can use it to fight me in court. i had no money left to even get an ok lawey as she took everything from me.

What I find interesting health is that the litigant in the matter whom was unsuccessful is a doctor and your name is "health". In addition, I find it intersting that you are only concerned about this single posting of case law. There are thousands of other ones... Way more popular than this one. It doesn't even come up on generic Google searches for "domestic violence" as it is just too new. The only way to locate it really through google is by name. So you specifically were looking for it by name. In addition, it is what we called prior to your post... a dead thread. It didn't show up as active as no one had touched it in months... it could have sat in relative obscurity but, your continual posting to it just servers to increase it's hit ranking.

my children choose me now because i was thier father and she never took that from me.

I doubt this is truthful.

when it comes to that case: where is the evidence that the father was not really abusive?

In the continuing record and in the order from the honourable Justice.

i didn't see anything in that case law. the judge simply assumed that because the mother presisted in saying she was abused so that should be untrue.

Feel free to order a copy of the continuing record and pay closer attention to the order. I find it interesting that you as a parent (father) alleging that you were a victim of false allegations of domestic violence are defending someone who was found to being doing this to another father... and on motion and based on evidence presented at the hearing.

that should be considered false allegations

You are clearly not thinking logically. Read the case law again. The justice set out the reasons for the decision and order quite well. You may not accept this but, the justice did an excellent job. If there was an error in law then the mother should appeal the matter. But, she only has 30 days to do so.

if i have to do it all over again, i would've done everything differently starting with having my own defense not using case laws and people's advice on what to do.

Maybe, you should have taken the good advice of others, not lied and made false allegations of domestic violence and possibly been unsuccessful on this motion.

guys, fight for changing the legal system not for going back to the past cases and cite them over and over.

Really? You know what "guys" do? Your gender bouncing and style of writing is very feminine. If you ask how I know, I use an expert system that does pattern analysis.

we are equal parents unless proven otherwise.

Well, not in this case we are discussing. The father in this matter was successful on motion and is the primary caregiver and sole custodial parent. This is not "equal parenting".

I am a proud father of 2 children who love me now and respect me for what i did and for what i didn't do.

I doubt this... See my reasons above.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

Hi All,

This is a forum first. A "father", who claims to be a victim him(her?)self comes in and posts in a thread requesting the removal of names from publicly posted case law defending the "mother" of said case law who was found to be making false allegations of domestic violence.

Anyone else find this rather odd?

Good Luck!
Tayken

[ddol1]

I am not sure if this is relevant - but in simple English... "If you do not want your laundry aired in court - then do your best to settle. I have actually spent most of the morning reviewing my old posts and more important the detailed responses given to me, the case laws to which I have really used to at least understand rulings and I agree that the old cases posted online and a few good ones that the lawyer got that I could not find posted has allowed me to at least in my heart know what I must think and learn to get through this.

The concern of names? If it is up there then it is public and our system is a public one - said many times, if you do not want your name up then settle. With interest I in large way hope that if my case is forced to trial, and I now have two excellent lawyers that are actually supporting my case and doing their best to get it settled - but they are telling me that after six weeks of doing their best it doesn't look good. My point - Yes all this has driven me to a series of "breakdowns", I just could not handle the pressure, the lies and I recently posted... relieved to hear specialized medical professionals state what is already public!

I will change my statement from "I am relieved that finally the consequences of the actions taken by my ex has been recognized and that I managed to even survive what has gone on." To more so now that I have had opportunity to continue my help -- that I am sad I was forced to run from my children as I saw they were being hurt, but every agency in the system has now recognized that although I suffer with chronic pain "generated mental strain issues" (best I can do short form) I do so with dignity, a smile and a keen sense of wanting to get better and my absolute concern for our children's well being is clear.

I was surprized to learn that in the course of my getting help and improving my Ex has shown to be all the worst of what these "disorders can generate in people and her willingness to as I am told, to harm our children and all these agencies have developed similar assessments each and every time regarding my Ex - and her actions are getting noticed and "her assessments" are far from honourable to the point that if the children were younger they most likely would be removed.

If all this holds true and we are forced to trial - I hope our case would be posted for all to see - so as to help others in my situation. Even in suffering, good can be found and if my name getting posted can help even one other stranger that has faced what I have - it would be worth it.....

[ByMyself]

Anyone else find this rather odd?

I picked up on that earlier today too... had a strong suspicion at least. But the events of today make it shockingly clear.

And the ironic part of this situation, like Tayken mentions, is that the more he (she) keeps posting, and the more it triggers all of us to search it on google, the more prevalent the case becomes on google. He(she)'s making their own situation worse.

Which seems to fit the pattern when you read the case and the posts today.

[health]

yes, people should their concerns to addres thier concerns to the moderator.

but when your posts make women who are really abused scared to come out and fight for herself, i worry.
you should give credit to that woman in the case. my understanding she is a physician..why name herself health?? stupidity or psych?

goo luck and must exit. i am thrown 3 years back to my misery. i don;t want to be involved anymore.