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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #31  
Old 05-25-2018, 03:35 PM
kate331 kate331 is offline
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Janus, I disagree I think any parent can alienate the other regardless of their access time. Seems to me the Father is trying on his time to not even acknowledge the children have another parent.

Put yourself in the kids shoes, they want to talk,chat,ask their Mom something and they are being denied. It works both ways.

Ange doesn't deny this contact on her parenting time. She isn't asking Dad to butt out of their lives on her time. I think from what I have read from her post, the Dad has NO respect for her and that will effect the children, hence imo its alienation.
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  #32  
Old 05-25-2018, 07:29 PM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate331 View Post
Janus, I disagree I think any parent can alienate the other regardless of their access time. Seems to me the Father is trying on his time to not even acknowledge the children have another parent.



Put yourself in the kids shoes, they want to talk,chat,ask their Mom something and they are being denied. It works both ways.



Ange doesn't deny this contact on her parenting time. She isn't asking Dad to butt out of their lives on her time. I think from what I have read from her post, the Dad has NO respect for her and that will effect the children, hence imo its alienation.


Hes not alienating them. Theres a difference. Hes simply refusing them access to phones. Hes being a jerk like he has since the beginning of her saga.

People really need to learn the difference between a-hole behaviour and alienation. There is a HUGE difference.
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2018, 07:41 PM
kate331 kate331 is offline
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Rockscan, is this a fair description of Alienation?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Parental alienation is the process, and the result, of psychological manipulation of a child into showing unwarranted fear, disrespect or hostility towards a parent and/or other family members.[1][2] It is a distinctive form of psychological abuse towards both the child and the rejected family members, that occurs almost exclusively in association with family separation or divorce, particularly where legal action is involved.[3] It undermines core principles of both the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Most commonly, the primary cause is a parent wishing to exclude another parent from the life of their child, but other family members or friends, as well as professionals involved with the family (including psychologists, lawyers and judges), may contribute significantly to the process.[2][4] It often leads to the long-term, or even permanent, estrangement of a child from one parent and other family members[5] and, as a particularly adverse childhood experience, results in significantly increased lifetime risks of both mental and physical illness.[6]
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  #34  
Old 05-25-2018, 10:51 PM
kate331 kate331 is offline
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So by this definition, Ange's ex is trying to reject Mom by not allowing access to her on his parenting time. So for 40% of their childhood, they should forget they have another parent???

Also the disrespect this parent is showing to the Mother of his children makes him a Jerk, I agree, but I also feel its alienation.

I am not posting to be confrontational, this is a great forum to learn from and my ex is accusing me of alienation too. So a better understanding on my part would be appreciated.
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  #35  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:17 PM
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I dunno you guys.... I think you have to learn to let go when the kids are at the other parent's home.

The reality is that you are divorced and there are now 2 homes for children.

I think you have to turn a magic switch and go about your lives in another mode when kids are at the other parent's home. It goes without saying, you are always available should your ex deem it necessary to contact you.

It must be very difficult for you and the children. Adjusting to new homes, new rules can't be easy.

You can make it easier for your children. Instead of filling the kid's heads with unrealistic information (that they can call you anytime)... you might be better to say that you always think of them and love them.... Daddy can look after them and would call you if necessary. I'd put emphasis on those calls coming with Daddy's blessing. Hopefully "Daddy" will show you the same courtesy.

Of course, the optimum solution would be to work out the details with the Father. Perhaps this is something you can tackle?

Seems to me that these kids are under a great deal of pressure to please both parents. While your ex may be unreasonable and very harsh w.r.t. allowing calls to you, this is the reality of your situation. The sooner you accept it, and learn to work with it, the happier you and your children will be I think.
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  #36  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:20 AM
kate331 kate331 is offline
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I have my kids 80% of the time, and fought for that 20% so my perspective may be different. And trust me Arabian I LOVE that magic switch, contact me after the 911 ambulance call and I will be there for my kids, but in the meantime my ex should be able to handle it or get his gf to figure it out.

But I'm thinking in a fairer custody split the children should be able to contact both their parents. I think your right that its difficult for these children, Ange has said that.

Perhaps, in future agreement there could be a mediation clause for dispute resolution in cases like this. Solutions for these kids caught in the middle should be a priority. Bashing Mom, not so much.
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Old 05-26-2018, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate331 View Post
So by this definition, Ange's ex is trying to reject Mom by not allowing access to her on his parenting time. So for 40% of their childhood, they should forget they have another parent???



Also the disrespect this parent is showing to the Mother of his children makes him a Jerk, I agree, but I also feel its alienation.



I am not posting to be confrontational, this is a great forum to learn from and my ex is accusing me of alienation too. So a better understanding on my part would be appreciated.


Read more than wikipedia on alienation. You will see the difference. Refusing a phone is not alienation. And even if it continues the kids still love their mother.

Alienation claims are similar to abuse claims IN MY OPINION. Most people who have been alienated know that claiming it wont change the childrens minds and they request therapy. The ones who use it as shit slinging have nothing else behind it other than “im not paying support”. My partner has been alienated fully and even he knows not paying support will get him nowhere.
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  #38  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:45 PM
Ange71727 Ange71727 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
I dunno you guys.... I think you have to learn to let go when the kids are at the other parent's home.

The reality is that you are divorced and there are now 2 homes for children.

I think you have to turn a magic switch and go about your lives in another mode when kids are at the other parent's home. It goes without saying, you are always available should your ex deem it necessary to contact you.

It must be very difficult for you and the children. Adjusting to new homes, new rules can't be easy.

You can make it easier for your children. Instead of filling the kid's heads with unrealistic information (that they can call you anytime)... you might be better to say that you always think of them and love them.... Daddy can look after them and would call you if necessary. I'd put emphasis on those calls coming with Daddy's blessing. Hopefully "Daddy" will show you the same courtesy.

Of course, the optimum solution would be to work out the details with the Father. Perhaps this is something you can tackle?

Seems to me that these kids are under a great deal of pressure to please both parents. While your ex may be unreasonable and very harsh w.r.t. allowing calls to you, this is the reality of your situation. The sooner you accept it, and learn to work with it, the happier you and your children will be I think.


Just to clarify, the kids are not under pressure from me. I think either that was miscommunicated or some have assumed that. I am doing my best to downplay and let them know it’s not a big deal. I have been telling them that they can see my messages when they do get phone access. The piece in this equation that bothers me is:

a) everyone was happily able to text each other from both households as a “status quo” for years (for the most part). There is no “new home, new rules” as we’ve been divorced a long time - two homes for nine years now.

b) dad got mad and took that away from the kids

c) consequently the kids are upset

I know I have majority access. I’m not trying to helicopter or “constantly contact” them. I’m not storming back to court. I just think it’s horrible that an established system was in place and then it was revoked causing stress to the kids. That’s what makes me angry. Anyway, I think it’s clear that I can’t really do anything about it so the kids and I will likely just have to live with it.


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  #39  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:47 PM
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I understand how upsetting this can be for you. I don't think you are a helicopter mom but merely someone who is closely connected to their children.

An upside of this whole thing, while distasteful for you now, is that children will learn to sort out their own problems with their father. That could be a blessing for you in the future. Better this way than having to run interference for them like so many of us do who raised kids in non-divorced families.
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  #40  
Old 05-28-2018, 12:05 AM
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Very interesting discussion, and I love the differences in opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ange71727 View Post
So by your incredibly flawed logic, the next time a dad comes on here complaining about his ex wife not allowing communication between him and the kids you’re going to post your unwavering support for her freedom to do what she wishes on her parenting time then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janus View Post
If the father had them 80% of the time and was engaging in this behavior, I would be substantially more critical.
Well I have a real life example of exactly that. I respect and value Janus’ opinion. With no hidden motive, it would be great to get Janus’ feedback (and others too) on the following, which tends to have been lost in the mountain of crap that is my situation described somewhere else.

I have children for less than 20% of the year. I don’t even live in Canada. My ex has been overt in blocking communication and not simply using excuses like “dead battery”. She told me to stop calling children because my phone calls to children cost her too much money. I was the one calling, not the other way around so there was no cost to her. When I did not stop calling, my ex blocked my phone number from my daughter’s phone. My daughter found a way to unblock it, and got in trouble with her mom who found out. Later I started calling using Voice Over IP, then my ex confiscated the phone. I was calling once a week (for less than an hour each call) usually after dinner, not late. Not what I would consider overbearing.

Ex has changed children’s e-mail passwords to prevent them from e-mailing me freely. They can only e-mail me if she logs them in. I received exactly one e-mail in the last six months. Ex threatened children that if they e-mail me from another account, she will confiscate iPads. She then subsequently confiscated iPads.

Ex is refusing Skype calls to children on evenings she is not at home. She allows it on days she is there, but she sits next to children during the entire call to listen, and intervenes 20+ times during a one hour call and creates conflict, including directly addressing me in front of children with miscellaneous complaints. I have always refused to engage with her in front of children during those calls. She forbids children to talk about certain topics, and tells children what to tell me. She has terminated calls when she did not like what we were talking about, for example when a child would tell me a naughty thing a sibling had done. Those calls were hell and put children into so much conflict that I stopped using Skype. Since she won’t allow Skype calls when she is not there (she controls the password of that too), then there is no more communication at all for 3 weeks straight every month, between my visits to Canada.

Similar to Ange, at the beginning for a couple of years there was no problem at all. Then once I asked for joint custody, all hell broke loose and my ex bent over backwards in several ways to block communication.

So my question is, should I complain in court about this, or does the recommendation remain the same as for Ange = suck it up?

Second question, since I will go to court for other issues, should I bring up the communication issue as a secondary request, not because I think the judge will give me anything which is enforceable, but with the purpose of informing the judge about what is going on and exposing my ex’s behavior, to influence and perhaps make the judge more flexible and more sympathetic to my more important requests?
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