Enforcing an Order in the States

[MS Mom]

Anyone have any experience dealing with FRO and a child support order where the payer is in the US?

I'm at my wits end with these FRO people....

[arabian]

If FRO is like MEP then they are slow. My advice would be to keep up the pressure, always insist on written statements of action and be relentless in providing them (FRO) with information (bank statements/employee statements etc.). Ask FRO what you can do to help in the collection process. Ask for the name/ID# of everyone you talk to. Write to FRO with all the information, cc the Ombudsman, and demand a response.

Good luck - sorry to hear you are having problems collecting for your wonderful child. I'm sure the loser-father is happily remarried with a new family no?

[LawHelp]

Enforcing an Order in the States

Go to your local MPP and complain . They have their own case workers that deal specifically with FRO. Give it q shot and stay on their backs!! Goodluck

[LawHelp]

I also have almost similar question. What if I get an order for financial disclosure for my ex employer in USA , how can I go about enforcing it there. We have reciprocal agreement with USA but I don't know how we can enforce orders over there? Anyone?

[MS Mom]

I've already approached the MPP.

What happened.....

It took from July 2014 to January 2015 just to get the court order issued. The order was to be in effect July 1, 2014.

Court order goes to FRO in January. February and March, no action on the increase. The ex "voluntarily pays" FRO. I call FRO, ask them why they aren't enforcing the new amounts in the new order. They respond with VAPS.

VAPS is completed. FRO agrees to giving him 24 more months to pay what he should have paid between July 2014 and March 2015. As the recipient, you have no input.

I complained about the VAPS they put in place. The ex had plenty of time to increase his payments according to the order. FRO maintains that he needs "a chance". Only $400 of the $4000+ of arrears is court ordered in July 2014 - the remainder is because he chose to ignore that court order. FRO gives him 2 years to make that shortfall up. As the increase in CS is actually a fixed amount for medical expenses monthly, and he is already far behind on the medical expenses (think the year it took to get the order), I complained. I have to pay the full amount of medical expenses whether he pays or not, and in July 2014 he was already a year behind in the payments.

FRO doesn't care that they've negotiated 7 months of shortfall payments to be repaid over 2 years. Ridiculous arrears payment schedule.

I complained to MPP. They did nothing - told me too bad, so sad.

FRO then, because of the complaint I made to MPP, decided to send my file to the states for enforcement. As a result, I'm receiving zero.

Yesterday when I spoke with FRO, the case worker was extremely rude. She said if I'd have left the VAPS alone, he would have his arrears paid up in 7 months. When I corrected her math (simple equation really - $4000 paid at 200/m does not equal 7 months) she got very snotty, so I asked to speak to a supervisor. I've had no return call.

We can't enforce any orders, only FRO can. And, quite frankly, they don't either.

He's crossing the border in July and taking his other daughter on vacation for a week. He's told my daughter she isn't invited. He's nice like that.

[LawHelp]

Oh I am so sorry that you couldn't get any help from FRO through MPP. It does suck how easy it is for some to just to keep on delaying with no penalty. I wonder if there is anyway court can order that FRO can not allow a VAPS??? Or there is some other faster and easier way to get the money from them.

[Berner_Faith]

It seems you may have to now deal with the enforcement agency in the US as FRO has passed your file off to them. Have you tried contacting them? I am sure they will have more luck tracking down the ex than FRO.

It is unfortunate but sometimes getting some money is better than getting none. FRO has policies and procedures in place, which is what they utilized when they set up the VAPS, even if you, I and everyone else doesn't agree with it, that is how they work. Asking them to go against their regular course of action, was asking them to break their policies and procedures. FRO wasn't willing to do so, therefore they passed your file off.

It is sad when a parent won't support their child.

[MS Mom]

It seems you may have to now deal with the enforcement agency in the US as FRO has passed your file off to them. Have you tried contacting them? I am sure they will have more luck tracking down the ex than FRO.

It is unfortunate but sometimes getting some money is better than getting none. FRO has policies and procedures in place, which is what they utilized when they set up the VAPS, even if you, I and everyone else doesn't agree with it, that is how they work. Asking them to go against their regular course of action, was asking them to break their policies and procedures. FRO wasn't willing to do so, therefore they passed your file off.

It is sad when a parent won't support their child.

You still have to contact FRO even when the file has been sent to the states. I've asked FRO for their details, they refuse to provide them. FRO tells me that my Ontario issued order is now subject to the procedures and policies of the US State, and that they may not enforce the order as written.

FRO shouldn't be able to vary a court order to that extent. The court order specified that payments for the medical expenses were to commence as of July 1, 2014 - the motion was heard on July 18 2014 and judgment issued on July 31,2014. It was the intention of the court order that he commence paying immediately. It was written this way as he was already behind in the payments.

What FRO won't recognize is that it took from July 2014 to January 2015 to get the court order issued. That was down to delay tactics from his lawyer (I was self-repped, he was to issue the order). Order was issued finally in January, so he was already 7 months behind when the order was issued. He didn't make the correct payments in February or March.

FRO accepted a VAPS from him to make 9 months of shortfall payments over the following two years. The VAPS they devised is contrary to the spirit of the court order, which specified he was to make payments IMMEDIATELY. The judge was not impressed with his unwillingness to be cooperative on the expense, and issued judgment to reflect this.

FRO has essentially augmented this order by not enforcing it correctly. And, when I hear such obvious mathematical errors from them as a response, I took it a step further. Perhaps they felt the VAPS was fair because they can't do math? After all, they keep trying to tell me that the arrears would be paid in 7 months, when in reality, it's closer to 24.

FRO cares too much about what a payer can afford and nothing about what the recipient can afford. FRO has essentially forced me to give the ex a 2 year loan.

I didn't ask FRO to go against their course of action. That would require KNOWING what their course of actions are, and as anyone who is receiving cs through FRO knows, you don't get information of that sort from them. What you hear is "you have to give him a chance."

Anyone who voluntarily pays through FRO is essentially exempt from payroll garnishment. Even if they are voluntarily paying a lesser amount....because they voluntarily pay, no actions are taken unless the recipient pushes for it.

Now I ask you, why would anyone pay a bill on time if by virtue of not paying it, you get an additional two years, interest free to pay it?

[MS Mom]

Oh I am so sorry that you couldn't get any help from FRO through MPP. It does suck how easy it is for some to just to keep on delaying with no penalty. I wonder if there is anyway court can order that FRO can not allow a VAPS??? Or there is some other faster and easier way to get the money from them.

In all honesty, the way this order is written, FRO shouldn't have implemented a VAPS of any kind. The child support amount actually went down marginally, the only increase is medical expenses....these are fixed expenses for which I am responsible.

The judge ordered he commence payments on the order prior to the motion even being heard. The motion was on July 18, and the judge issued the order to be effective July 1. The judge determined his ability to pay at the motion and ordered as such.

Why can FRO now go through the rigmarole of a financial statement, affordability, etc. when the judge had already done that? A VAPS is appropriate if the arrears is court ordered in a lump sum (unanticipated by the payer), or has accumulated due to loss of job/income, etc. A VAPS may be appropriate if it's child support outstanding, but when it's a fixed medical expense that the custodial parent has to pay no matter what, it's completely inappropriate.

[MS Mom]

It seems you may have to now deal with the enforcement agency in the US as FRO has passed your file off to them. Have you tried contacting them? I am sure they will have more luck tracking down the ex than FRO.

It is unfortunate but sometimes getting some money is better than getting none. FRO has policies and procedures in place, which is what they utilized when they set up the VAPS, even if you, I and everyone else doesn't agree with it, that is how they work. Asking them to go against their regular course of action, was asking them to break their policies and procedures. FRO wasn't willing to do so, therefore they passed your file off.

It is sad when a parent won't support their child.

The ex doesn't need to be tracked down. They know exactly where he is, where he works, and even his vacation plans. They have his banking (US and Canadian) information, his parent's location, his phone numbers, addresses, SIN and Social Security Number. They could take funds from any of his accounts, garnish his wages, lein his home, cancel his driver's license and passport. Finding the guy and his assets isn't the problem. It's getting FRO to do something that is the problem.

FRO has policies and procedures in place that nobody who uses FRO knows anything about. What are FRO's escalating steps for collection? What is the step by step process they undertake? How do the determine a VAPS is "reasonable". Anyone really know? I'd really like a document of this nature so I can start to understand the gibberish they say. All of those vague terms that show up in court orders which makes FRO refuse to enforce are the vague terms they use to speak to clients with.

[arabian]

welcome to my world.

I've had the same frustration with MEP in Alberta. What I do know is that MEP is the collection arm of Alberta Justice. MEP can only enforce the Order. If my order does not have a specific monthly payment (including date due) then MEP is free to negotiate whatever they'd like.

Keep in mind these collection agencies are merely call centres. I know I have to go back to court to vary any Orders I have and have judge specify exactly what my ex will pay each and every month. There can be no ambiguity whatsoever.

Many judges in Alberta take the position that they don't want to tell MEP how to do their job so it can be a vicious circle.

Please don't post too much on this subject online as we don't want the deadbeats to glean further information.

I know Ontario is pretty far behind (not having an online system) but I do know that the collection process is pretty much the same province to province. If you want to know the escalation process you can get info on AlbertaMEPonline.

I think the provincial collection agencies collude and set their policies/procedures the same (I am no expert - this just my impression after dealing with them for past 6 years).

FRO Ontario should be able to give you specific wording for court order. Again, if you can't get it from them you can get it on Alberta's website.

[MS Mom]

welcome to my world.

I've had the same frustration with MEP in Alberta. What I do know is that MEP is the collection arm of Alberta Justice. MEP can only enforce the Order. If my order does not have a specific monthly payment (including date due) then MEP is free to negotiate whatever they'd like.

Keep in mind these collection agencies are merely call centres. I know I have to go back to court to vary any Orders I have and have judge specify exactly what my ex will pay each and every month. There can be no ambiguity whatsoever.

Many judges in Alberta take the position that they don't want to tell MEP how to do their job so it can be a vicious circle.

Please don't post too much on this subject online as we don't want the deadbeats to glean further information.

I know Ontario is pretty far behind (not having an online system) but I do know that the collection process is pretty much the same province to province. If you want to know the escalation process you can get info on AlbertaMEPonline.

I think the provincial collection agencies collude and set their policies/procedures the same (I am no expert - this just my impression after dealing with them for past 6 years).

FRO Ontario should be able to give you specific wording for court order. Again, if you can't get it from them you can get it on Alberta's website.

The court order is very specific. Very. I've already gone down the road with all this once before, and FRO wouldn't enforce because of ambiguity in the agreement. Proportionate share, etc.

So, I went and got a very specific order. And, still....

I know he's gaming the system, he's been doing that for years.

[arabian]

Can you ask FRO to put in writing exactly what is ambiguous about your order? Does FRO respond in writing at all?

They could get him by the short and curlies though his passport. Bunch of dinks.

[arabian]

Just last month I believe someone posted that they simply wrote a letter to the judge explaining their situation and the judge altered the order. If you could find out from FRO what the specific problem is then perhaps you could send the judge a letter. Doesn't hurt to try.

I feel bad for you raising a child on your own and having a dickhead ex who won't do what he is supposed to do and instead who pays lawyer when he should be paying the court-ordered medical portion.

Visualize the FRO people... mindless people sitting in a call centre merely reading what the previous operator inputed into your file. They have their "script" and they seem to be sticking to it.

[MS Mom]

Can you ask FRO to put in writing exactly what is ambiguous about your order? Does FRO respond in writing at all?

They could get him by the short and curlies though his passport. Bunch of dinks.

There isn't anything ambiguous about the order. They just refuse to implement any other enforcement method in Canada but VAPS, and I feel the VAPS was contrary to the order. I don't think the judge intended for me to finance these expenses an additional 24 months as she wrote it effective the month we were in court. He just didn't pay it for 9 months.

He holds a Canadian Passport and works in the US, so logic would dictate that the easiest way to take care of this is through passport suspension. But they won't. They transferred the file to be enforced through the state. They claim there is wage garnishment, but they were determining the amount. Which, again, is clear in the order.

I just wish there was some manual out there ... I can't find any info on the enforcement measures, beyond a vague description of what they are.