Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > Parenting Issues

Parenting Issues This forum is for discussing any of the parenting issues involved in your divorce, including parenting of step-children.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-06-2015, 10:17 PM
YYZDaddy YYZDaddy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104
YYZDaddy is on a distinguished road
Question HAP or Parental Alientation

My 8yo son has just began exhibiting HAP/PAS-like symptoms in the past week while at his mother's place. Extreme anger and hate towards me on the phone, refusing to come to my place this coming weekend. (We have week about access and joint custody in a temporary order.)

The behaviour is new and completely out of the blue. Last week he was with me, and was a complete joy. His usual self, and had a great week in school.

His words are completely heartbreaking, and I know my ex is considering not bringing him to me on Sunday. From everything I've read so far, allowing him to make this choice is the worst possible option. Discipline must be upheld, and he should hear a consistent message from both of us.

We do have initial appointments with a therapist lined up, so hopefully we can nip this in the bud before it gets too far out of control.

Would someone be available for a short chat about this? I'm still reading as much as I can. I could use an ear and an experienced parent, as I'm completely overwhelmed right now. I'm not sure what to expect if/when he is brought to my place this weekend.

Any number of ways to communicate, whatever you're comfortable with. From email to phone.

Much appreciated

Some interesting articles I've come across so far:
The Dangers of Choice in Alienation/Splitting Reactions
Parental Alienation Treatment



Last edited by YYZDaddy; 11-06-2015 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Grammar/typo corrections
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:18 AM
Beachnana Beachnana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,358
Beachnana is on a distinguished road
Default

Children react in different ways. How new is the separation. Are you sure his words and actions are coming from Moms influence?

Last week my 4 yr old Grandson asked his Mom if his Dad was dead. Apparently at his hockey practice someone said his Daddy must be dead, as he was not on the ice with all the other Daddies. Now he does not want his Mom on the ice with him. She is a hockey player herself but she is the only Mom on the ice.

It may well be HAP. You need to be calm and consistent in your communication with your son. Its heartbreaking I am sure.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-07-2015, 02:19 AM
YYZDaddy YYZDaddy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104
YYZDaddy is on a distinguished road
Default

Well I can't be certain, as this is so new to me. We've been separated for 5 years (long story), and he has had some behavioural issues while with her, but nothing like this. So extreme and sudden. I'm using 'Parental Alienation' as the symptomatic reaction, not the action from his mother... although I have my suspicions in that department.

Ex and I have a very toxic relationship, which has gotten worse lately, and that's going to be a huge contributor. HAP may be most likely, as you say.

Doing my best to think long term and always take the high road. Not easy, but it's the right way to go.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-07-2015, 10:37 AM
Beachnana Beachnana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,358
Beachnana is on a distinguished road
Default

Well he most certainly needs to come you, as per your arrangements. Your ex cannot make that decision, nor can an 8 yr old. Just plan some one on one time with your son. Try to communicate with him and reassure him he is not in any trouble, just that you are always there for him and will always be part of his life. I think you really ned to get him to open up and tell you what triggered this.

But do not let your ex keep him away. That would merely fuel any developing problems.

Good luck
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-08-2015, 08:10 PM
YYZDaddy YYZDaddy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104
YYZDaddy is on a distinguished road
Default

Well she brought him to me, with her parents in the car as well.
My son resisted getting out of the car, and my ex started screaming at me in front of him, when I tried to get him out.
Went on for a while with her screaming about kids having a choice, and for me to get another court order (already have one).
I couldn't get ex to step aside and talk to me, and she just kept yelling.

To diffuse the situation (since I couldn't physically yank him out), I told my son I would pick him up from school tomorrow. He quietly agreed. He's missed a lot fo school this past week, and I suspect he won't be there tomorrow.

Luckily I got part of the screaming recorded. I can only hope OCL (already involved) will jump all over this. Ex's family has painted me as the bad guy to him. It's all of them against me.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-08-2015, 08:24 PM
LovingFather32's Avatar
LovingFather32 LovingFather32 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,522
LovingFather32 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

The thing about kids are that they "hear" things when parents least expect it. If he heard mom talking negative it probably confuses the heck out of him.

I was talking with a kindergarten teacher at my school, as she/s going through a separation. In her case the dad moved to Toronto ..but wants to return to Ottawa to be closer to the kids. Great right? Not to the mom....I was surprised to hear her explain how it was such a bad idea...that she tells her own kids that they should be with their friends and concentrating on other things than the father. It bothered me, a lot. But I lent my ears and didn't give my opinion on the matter.

My point is that it's the parents responsibility to speak positively about the other parent and encourage their relationship...no matter how much negativity there is. If your ex is comfortable yelling at you in front of the child at exchanges .. I can just imagine what else she may be comfortable doing/saying when you're not there.

D7's dad just called and I noticed D7 wasn't very in to it. When she got off I let her know that her dad calls her every night and loves her more than anything..and misses her. She called back and told him she loves him and misses him and she couldnt wait to see him. I know that made his night.

Same with D4 .. I know her mom is one of her hero;s...and rightly so .. its her mom. I would never dare portray her any other way than a hero with D4. How some parents dont get this simple equation will always boggle my mind. These are sensitive, developing brains and they need to hear healthy things and have healthy relationships for optimal development.

PAS ... not an easy one to prove.

I could go over some diagnostic criteria, etc, but whenever I decide to study PAS (on my free time), I always refer to this chart:

CanLII - 2009 CanLII 82663 (ON SC)

Check out table 15 on the above link. You would need consistent, solid, documented evidence using that chart.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you, must be terribly hard.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 11-08-2015 at 08:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-08-2015, 08:32 PM
YYZDaddy YYZDaddy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104
YYZDaddy is on a distinguished road
Default

Thank you for this. I've seen it before, and my situation has a lot of check marks against that list.
I'm avoiding the PAS terminology when I talk to my lawyer, but i do highlight all of the indicators. Going to arrange a meeting with the OCL case worker to see what the options are.

While proving PAS may be difficult, getting any child psychologist to tell me ex that such behaviour is completely wrong should be easy. Her actions and the symptoms will be mentioned this week at son's intake and assessment.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-08-2015, 08:47 PM
LovingFather32's Avatar
LovingFather32 LovingFather32 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,522
LovingFather32 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZDaddy View Post
Thank you for this. I've seen it before, and my situation has a lot of check marks against that list.
I'm avoiding the PAS terminology when I talk to my lawyer, but i do highlight all of the indicators. Going to arrange a meeting with the OCL case worker to see what the options are.

While proving PAS may be difficult, getting any child psychologist to tell me ex that such behaviour is completely wrong should be easy. Her actions and the symptoms will be mentioned this week at son's intake and assessment.
That's just it .. PAS for some reason has gotten a bad reputation in the medical field for the most part. But so did PTSD and many other's when they were first coined. The paradigm needs time to evolve .. it obviously exists, just too many bottlenecks and loopholes in the DSM for it right now.

You're on the right track with the child psychologist. PAS can be inferred perhaps without mentioning the PA syndrome itself. Remember, the more recordings, e-mails, and any other documented evidence you have will help your case.

Remember also, that this could just be a phase. Your son's life has a lot of changes and that could cause turbulence in moods .. especially approaching young adulthood he has that wonderful testosterone migrating through his system, and well as other hormones he's not used to.

From a psychological standpoint the child may feel guilty .. like the fights are his fault somehow (because he knows he's in the middle). His coping mechanism may be to "project" these feelings negatively on to you to reduce his anxiety .. and possibly is reinforced by mom's positive reaction to him not wanting to see you.

Anyways .. just some thoughts .. the psychologist may have similar outlooks I'm sure.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-09-2015, 11:35 AM
SadAndTired SadAndTired is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,169
SadAndTired is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZDaddy View Post
My 8yo son has just began exhibiting HAP/PAS-like symptoms in the past week while at his mother's place. Extreme anger and hate towards me on the phone, refusing to come to my place this coming weekend. (We have week about access and joint custody in a temporary order.)

The behaviour is new and completely out of the blue. Last week he was with me, and was a complete joy. His usual self, and had a great week in school.

His words are completely heartbreaking, and I know my ex is considering not bringing him to me on Sunday. From everything I've read so far, allowing him to make this choice is the worst possible option. Discipline must be upheld, and he should hear a consistent message from both of us.

We do have initial appointments with a therapist lined up, so hopefully we can nip this in the bud before it gets too far out of control.
Hi YYZ

I would say to be careful to assume it is alienation. Has your ex demonstrated any inclination for that before?

Because the behaviour is so sudden and feels so extreme, I would look towards other issues first. School, peers, etc may be to blame. If he was a "joy" last week and showing hatred this week, it could be something that has happened that is affecting him.

Just sit and talk with him in person while doing an activity he likes. I mean, truly sit and talk but listen more and be patient. "Seems like you are pretty angry. I feel angry sometimes."

"What was the best/worst things that happened this week?"

Often it takes kids a really long time to get to the issue that is really bothering them.

It may be something as simple as a peer's comment at school. You are a safe person for your son to vent his anger at. He knows you will love him no matter what. Be there to listen too.

Try to think of what you would have done if you had not been separated. How would you have handled it? Sometimes divorce clouds everything. Assume the simplest answer and work from there.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-09-2015, 11:43 AM
YYZDaddy YYZDaddy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104
YYZDaddy is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
I would say to be careful to assume it is alienation. Has your ex demonstrated any inclination for that before?
She has, but I have never witnessed it as blatantly as last night. Her screaming at me in front of him that he "is not an object, and has a choice".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
Just sit and talk with him in person while doing an activity he likes. I mean, truly sit and talk but listen more and be patient. "Seems like you are pretty angry. I feel angry sometimes."
I totally get what you're saying, but as a result of my ex's willingness to enforce his demands, I cannot see him. He vehemently states he wants to be with her, and she just sits back and says, "see?" instead of being an authority figure and working with me to ensure the schedule is upheld. On the legal side, I am working on this as she's in clear violation of an order, but I want to make sure he's going to get the appropriate help too.

I truly hope this is just a phase or reaction to a relatively simple event, but my gut is telling me it's much deeper than that. Once I can speak with him, or a counselor can get more out of him, then perhaps we can deal with specifics.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
behaviour, hap, high conflict, parental alienation


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Accused of Parental Alienation madm82 Divorce & Family Law 14 09-25-2011 09:51 AM
Parental Alienation Grace Divorce & Family Law 16 03-27-2011 09:21 AM
Parental Alienation LostFather Divorce & Family Law 1 06-28-2010 05:11 PM
Ontario - Parental Alienation Symposium logicalvelocity Political Issues 1 04-22-2009 09:37 PM
Definition of Parental Control - Family Law Act joey Financial Issues 3 03-25-2009 10:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:00 AM.