What is the point ?

[Tayken]

I've read many posts/discussions around parental alienation. Has anyone who has gone through the process of having it investigated, and legally documented and note sent to ex to stop the negative comments with the children actually succeeded ?

I'm in this position and it just seems it won't have any impact. Is my best option to just 'suck it up', ignore it, and continue to have the best time I can with my kids so they are excited and want to see me. At some age I know it will become obvious to them that their dad is saying inappropriate things about 'mom'...

Any thoughts/advice ? has anyone been able to change their ex and had them successfully stop the verbal slamming ?

Parental Alienation (PA) is onset by Hostile Agressive Parenting (HAP).

HAP leads to PA. From your description it sounds like you are dealing with HAP versus PA. there are very good suggestions already in this thread to deal with HAP.

The one thing ALL parents need to understand about the HAP->PA process is that it only leads to PA when the other parent has very little to no access. (Extreme cases.)

Parents engaging in HAP often stop once a solicitor notifies the parent they may be engaged in it.

Also, a warning to parents who in engage in HAP. It can often backfire. You are not doing something that is "original". Every dirty trick you can pull is well known in the divorce industry. So when you think you are being "original" someone has already done it and there is a posted decision about it.

For example a parent engaging in HAP will often say "the child doesn't want to go to parent X house". Justice Quinn nipped this one in the but with a WELL KNOWN decision about children who refuse to go on an exchange. The parent should do what a parent would do with a child who doesn't want to go to school. Make them go.

If you get a letter from a solicitor from the other side with weird things like this... Just look it up in CanLII.org and quote back the decision at them.

Many parents interpret HAP as PA. PA is a syndrome which is not recognized in psychology. It is a theory. So, it depends on the expert investigating the situation.

HAP can also backfire on the parent who is engaged. The children often revolt.

Parents need to always realize that their children *love* both parents. Each parent makes of *half* of who they are. If you insult or bad moth the other parent always remember this: You are insulting *half* of your child and the child may interpret it as this and revolt.

With HAP just point it out and ask for it to stop.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

Maybe they're supposed to - but OCL indicated to me that the arena for conflict concerns to be debated was in court, and not his concern to address. His was only to decide what is best for the child as to where should live and access regime.

The problem you face with OCL (any Custody and Access evaluator) is that many are influenced by the domestic violence ("DV") industry. So, your complaints/concerns/worries/etc... (each uses their own "term" for identifying parental concerns) may be interpreted because they have been tainted by the DV industry already which brings in a gender bias naturally.

The argument you should make is that the patterns of behaviour you are witnessing your children represent potentially hostile aggressive parenting ("HAP") and that you are concerned that if the access schedule isn't balanced it could lead to parental alienation syndrome ("PAS").

Furthermore, there are strong rooted reasons it is *valid* to bring up these concerns with the evaluator. So, in my opinion you are not wrong in bringing them up as they are *child* issues that need to be addressed. This style of parenting (HAP) can lead to serious anxiety disorders in children.

Furthermore, you may be dealing with an "overprotective" or "overanxious" parent on the other side. Bring up your concerns that the things you are hearing from your children may be related to anxiety in the other parent about your parenting abilities or their personal fear that they may lose custody of their children.

The behaviour often is short lived in the parent engaging in HAP. It is often driven from anger or a "fear of abandonment". The fear of abandonment of your children drives many overanxious / overprotective parents to make false allegations of domestic violence to protect *their* relationship with *their* children. (Note the "possessive" tone used.)

Still can't wrap my head around that...
It's like saying "I'm here to make sure the ice cream doesn't melt, so we'll take it out of the freezer and leave it unopened. As I can't actually see it melt, I'll asssume its not melting. After I leave and you open the container, you can debate with the court as to whether or not it was melted."

ok. lame anology just off the top of my head...

Not at all. In fact, it is a good one in my opinion. Now is the time for the evaluator to address *your* concerns about the children. It can be addressed easily with a good access schedule. When children spend equal time with both parents HAP -> PAS is very hard to happen. Because children will figure things out. They will spend equal time with both parents. They will get to know both parents and as they mature what one parent says about the other could become moot.

Children figure things out over time.

Custody evaluations are no walk in the park. They expect you to be the perfect parent. Want to have the other parent involved in the other parent's life. It is often difficult when separating and divorcing. Something caused the relationship to break down.

Furthermore, the number of overanxious / overprotective parents is increasing each year. The justice system (and evaluators) are going to have to start recognizing the impact on separation and divorce.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[TLCRN]

Tayken: I agree with most of your post except when you mention "make the child go", how do you do that when other third parties such as CAS get involved? I am aware of a specific case where the custodial parent tried to physically take the child to see the other parent at the access center and where the worker called CAS claiming it was "physical and emotional" abuse, with CAS becoming involved as it is the "CHILDS" RIGHTS". Did you know a child age 6-7 years old have rights? Where does one draw the line? the child was 7 years old and because the mother tried to physically tried to pick up the child as he refused to go visit, she was warned she would loose custody of the child.
No one makes it easy for any parents these days, it all come down to what one perceives as PA, HAP, psychological, physical, emotional abuse. Personally, this specific case was not "abuse" but hey, I don't work for CAS, I don't know their rules and policy. The worse is the OCL agreed with CAS but not the judge.
Every case and individual is different and all depends on who the third party involved such as therapists, social workers, psychologists, legal counsels, Judges, CAS, OCL to name a few. It's not that simple.

[Tayken]

Tayken: I agree with most of your post except when you mention "make the child go", how do you do that when other third parties such as CAS get involved?

1) You quote Justice Quinn as many solicitors and other judges do every day in the court room:

Gerenia v. Harb [2007] O.J. No. 305, at para. 44:

Undoubtedly, there are many tasks that a child, when asked may find unpleasant to perform. But ask we must and perform they must. A child who refused to go on an access visit should be treated by the custodial parent the same as a child who refused to go to school or otherwise misbehaves. The job of a parent is to parent.

Ask the CAS worker if they disagree with Justice Quinn and if the matter needs to return to court.

I am aware of a specific case where the custodial parent tried to physically take the child to see the other parent at the access center and where the worker called CAS claiming it was "physical and emotional" abuse, with CAS becoming involved as it is the "CHILDS" RIGHTS".

There are rare situations where a child is so despondent that they will not go. There are a few cases where custody and access reflected this. But, the general rule is posted above in this message.

Did you know a child age 6-7 years old have rights? Where does one draw the line? the child was 7 years old and because the mother tried to physically tried to pick up the child as he refused to go visit, she was warned she would loose custody of the child.

Again, you can leverage case law on the situation and do what is best for the children. Children have rights under the Human Rights Act and a variety of other laws. But, I think Justice Quinn puts it best.

No one makes it easy for any parents these days, it all come down to what one perceives as PA, HAP, psychological, physical, emotional abuse.

That is why the medical system and legal system in our country (which are both publicly funded) need to get together and solve the problem. The legal system is not able to evaluate anything medical and the medical system is not able to evaluate anything legal. So when you have a situation as described you have two battling systems.

Every case and individual is different and all depends on who the third party involved such as therapists, social workers, psychologists, legal counsels, Judges, CAS, OCL to name a few. It's not that simple.

Nothing about separation and divorce is "simple" unless both parents agree to make it simple. But, when you have one party unwilling to negotiate the legal system takes over.

Good Luck!
Tayken