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  • How much say does 12 year old have?

    Hello Everyone. It's been a long time since I've posted here. Hope you are all well.

    I have shared/joint custody of 2 girls with my ex, ages 12 and 13. About 3 weeks ago, my ex told the 12 year old in a fit of rage that she needed to leave and go live with me because he could only afford one child and she was too expensive. The next day he sent her multiple text messages telling her she had to return the cell phone he gave her and that she could come over on weekends. She was understandably distraught and is still very hurt.

    I've spoken to her about going to see him but she doesn't feel ready. I've told her she can take whatever time she needs.

    My ex is now threatening to take me to court for not forcing her to go see him.

    I guess I'm wondering - how do the courts view the child's opinion at this age?

  • #2
    You need to encourage her to go there. You should also explain to your ex that his behaviour about taking you to court isn’t helping and he needs to make amends with her. I would also suggest therapy for the two of them.

    Your job is to encourage and facilitate the parenting time. Work on that. Think of it this way, if you were still married and he yelled at her in the house, would you allow the behaviour of ignoring him to continue or would you work on getting them to meet in the middle?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
      You need to encourage her to go there. You should also explain to your ex that his behaviour about taking you to court isn’t helping and he needs to make amends with her. I would also suggest therapy for the two of them.

      Your job is to encourage and facilitate the parenting time. Work on that. Think of it this way, if you were still married and he yelled at her in the house, would you allow the behaviour of ignoring him to continue or would you work on getting them to meet in the middle?
      If we were dealing with a rational person, absolutely. We are not.

      We aren't talking about 'yelling' at her because she did something wrong. We all lose our tempers sometimes. We are talking about disgusting, abusive f-bomb ridden language that no child should have to endure. The last thing I want to do is teach a child (ESPECIALLY a girl) to ignore their inner voice. The relationship is unhealthy and I am not comfortable sending the message that she has to return to an unhealthy and abusive environment.

      This is not the first time he has done this to her nor will it be the last.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hence the therapy. He can take you to court to enforce the access. If he is endangering her then why haven’t you called cas? Why is the other child still in his care?

        Im not saying ignore his actions, Im saying you should be doing what you can to work on the behaviours so you are not seen as denying access. This isn’t about her “inner voice”, its about unhealthy behaviours. Hes still her father. If she was having a hard time at school would you allow her to stay home and listen to her “inner voice”? No you would work to resolve the issue.

        She is going to have to deal with this man for the rest of his life and as difficult as he is, she will need tools to cope and respond rather than hiding. My parents were both difficult and abusive and one prevented us from seeing the other and we were content with that but then it became difficult to deal with the other parent with their behaviours. It took several decades of therapy to understand their actions and how it impacted us. Your daughter will spend her life wondering why her father treated her this way and will never be able to tell him. You both need to learn how to set healthy boundaries and he needs to learn how to be a parent.

        He is still a parent and should not be denied the ability to see his children just because he cant cope or deal with things. Was he wrong? Yes but he should be told how to fix the problem so he can continue to see his child.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rockscan View Post
          He is still a parent and should not be denied the ability to see his children just because he cant cope or deal with things. Was he wrong? Yes but he should be told how to fix the problem so he can continue to see his child.
          No one is denying him the ability to see his children. She's not ready to go back and I don't want to force her until she is.

          I feel like you are seeing the world through rose coloured glasses. Things are not that simple. This situation is very complicated and would take much more space than this text box can handle to explain it all.

          Thank you for your input but I'm really looking for input on how the legal system handles the opinions of young teens.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am telling you legal information. Letting a child decide isn’t as simple as yes or no. A judge won’t agree to cut a child off from a parent as easily as you might think. The court will look at the whole situation and what the parents have done. They will need to look at the entire picture which means they will look at what BOTH parents have done. If your ex has been a dick and hasn’t worked on his behaviour they could even order supervised access. Im making these suggestions because eventually your daughter will have to have the tools to deal with her parent in any type of situation. There was a case out west where a parent accused the other of alienating the child and the judge ordered the child to see their other parent. He was 17 and ended up killing himself. Judges won’t simply say yes or no anymore. They will make serious considerations. Go ahead and search canlii for cases. This is why Im saying you should be working on what you have done to help the situation. YOU have an obligation to facilitate and encourage the relationship. Start documenting what your ex says and what your response is. “Kid is cooling off, perhaps you both could work together in a neutral location to resolve the issues” etc. CAS has programs for abusive men to reintegrate with their family and with children they have alienated themselves from.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HappyMomma View Post
              No one is denying him the ability to see his children. She's not ready to go back and I don't want to force her until she is.
              I'm really looking for input on how the legal system handles the opinions of young teens.
              Two situations:


              A) Court order says that father has parenting time


              You can get in trouble for not making her go. You don't want to force her to go. People don't want to be forced to pay child support. Court orders are all about forcing people to do things they don't want to do.


              B) Court order says that father does not have parenting time

              Then he doesn't have parenting time, and you can give him whatever parenting time makes you happy.




              But I'm in situation A and I don't wanna!


              Understood. Go to court, and get the custody order changed so it is like situation B.

              Comment


              • #8
                We're going through this with my daughter too. While my son (11) goes my daughter is on and off. She's 12 and CAS has always been involved in our lives but the straw that broke the child was after he hit her leg (Long story). We were told by them, she has the right to refuse to visit at 12 IF she doesn't feel safe. We went to lawyers cause part of me was like really?!? And the lawyers agreed to a point. There is a court order in place and if you don't follow it he can and should take you to court.

                However, if you are attempting to facilitate visitation. Then he wont get that far for a contempt case. You must prove you are trying to facilitate visitation. To do this, you can show one child is going (That's actually in your favor for contempt, but against you if your the one saying it's not safe). Document her concerns as to why she isn't going, document punishment for not going. IE My child doesn't go where she is supposed to she most certainly doesn't get to go hang with friends and watch TV all weekend. Get her some therapy, or try to facilitate him into therapy with her. We also force her to call every visitation she misses. This gives him a chance to keep up on her life and gets her comfortable with the idea that whatever the last fight was about has now blown over.

                Once he takes you to court....and eventually he will as it is his right. Most likely the OCL will assess both children, their maturity, their wants, their concerns... the family values at both houses (It'll feel like your getting an anal probe....everything comes out) They will write a report with recommendations which are then logged into the record. If you and your ex can't come to a settlement it'll come back to the judge who will decide if your ex's offenses are worth changing status quo or if it's a simple matter of requiring therapy or parenting lessons for your ex

                Comment


                • #9
                  To answer your question, a 12 year old does not have much say in a custody dispute. The judge will at this age start to take their wishes and opinions into consideration but through a third party supposed expert such as a custody and access assessor, OCL or CAS.

                  Anything you have to say will be dismissed or ignored and the other party will likely accuse you of alienation. A 12 year old child’s wishes are generally ignored by the court unless the child begins upping the ante such as running away, self-harming, threatening or attempting suicide. A judge will pay lip service to a 12 year old’s wishes unless the aforementioned behaviours arise. The judge will determine what is in the best interests of the child and they get it wrong 50% of the time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow, I think a lot of damage has been done, yes I can see a parent losing their temper but continuing the next day with text messages, there is obviously anger issues there.

                    Besides blaming you, what is Dad doing to mend his relationship with his daughter? I agree with the other posters that you should encourage the relationship, but sounds like there needs to be some supports in place for her, like therapy and a safety plan.

                    In your situation, a court ordered assessment may not be a bad idea if that would help getting your ex some help. Problem I see if going through the courts, is that its so slow she may age out of it before its resolved.

                    Is the child doing well in school and socially?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a related question, which is not about NOT seeing a parent, but rather about seeing more of a parent.

                      If a judge won't listen to a 12-year old much, as some have expressed an opinion here, then at what age can a child decide? What about the following:

                      Sole custody, very little time sharing, 14 year-old wants to spend more time with father, but denied by mother. When can the 14 year-old just decide to just go see her father even though she's supposed to be with the mother? 15? 16?

                      Which is not the same as saying the 14-year old wants to stop seeing the mother.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As the child gets older their wishes are given more weight by the court. If a 14 year old decides to go over to the fathers house on her/his own accord during the mother’s access time and does so repeatedly, the court is likely to take notice and take that into consideration if the father asks for more time and the mother objects. With older children, especially teens, their will starts to play a factor. A very strong willed teen will tell a judge what they can do with their order if they don’t agree. They vote with their feet .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stillbreathing View Post
                          As the child gets older their wishes are given more weight by the court. If a 14 year old decides to go over to the fathers house on her/his own accord during the mother’s access time and does so repeatedly, the court is likely to take notice and take that into consideration if the father asks for more time and the mother objects. With older children, especially teens, their will starts to play a factor. A very strong willed teen will tell a judge what they can do with their order if they don’t agree. They vote with their feet .
                          Thank you, this is more or less what I suspected.

                          So it sounds like a 14-year old could force the issue and end up half the time with the father and mother, if they wish to do so.

                          And what happens if there is a younger sibling? For example, if there is a 12-year old who is vocal about wanting to spend more time with the father. If it was only this child, I understand that a judge would more or less ignore. But if the 14-year old is going to the father regularly to force the issue, and the 12-year old is vocal about following too? Would the judge then give 50/50 time sharing for both, or could the judge say 50/50 for the 14 year old because that is what the teenager wants, but order the 12-year old must stay with the mother?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Istanbul View Post
                            Thank you, this is more or less what I suspected.



                            So it sounds like a 14-year old could force the issue and end up half the time with the father and mother, if they wish to do so.



                            And what happens if there is a younger sibling? For example, if there is a 12-year old who is vocal about wanting to spend more time with the father. If it was only this child, I understand that a judge would more or less ignore. But if the 14-year old is going to the father regularly to force the issue, and the 12-year old is vocal about following too? Would the judge then give 50/50 time sharing for both, or could the judge say 50/50 for the 14 year old because that is what the teenager wants, but order the 12-year old must stay with the mother?


                            You may want to try to work with your ex on this and try to reach an agreement with them. If either of you have concerns about this because of child support then there will be trouble. For instance, if she doesnt want to agree because she fears the loss of cs or you want to reduce cs then she will more than likely fight you for it which will create stress on the child. Even though the child wants it, there could be difficulty based on attitudes.

                            You may want to try to work with the ex first and go from there. The courts look at what you did to attempt to resolve the situation prior to filing paperwork.

                            Yes your child can come and go as they please but is that a battle you want to have when it isnt necessary?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Beware of encouraging a teen to vote with their feet or otherwise defy a visitation court order when their lives are not in immenant danger. Doing so may come back to bite you big time. You should actually do everything in your power to nip this in the bud. If your teen is successful you run the high risk of them continuing with the defiant behaviour once they have gotten what they (or you or both of you) wanted I.e. increased time with you and a court order that says so.

                              Teens are at an age where testing limits and asserting their own will is a normal stage of development. However, if they learn to manipulate with defiant behaviour to get their own way, they WILL also use those same techniques against you when they don’t like the rules at your house. You have to take the longer view and think about what you want to teach them. Do you want to teach them to disrespect the justice and court system or do you want to teach them patience, negotiation and problem solving skills?

                              Comment

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