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What to do if my kids don't want to stay with me?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
    I am very surprised by you Tayken. I would have expected more from you than telling the OP to be a Disneyland Dad.

    Mom is breaking the court order. Being s fun dad isn't going to change that if she refuses to send the kids. So Op plans a trip, tells the kids about it, but still doesn't get them because mom refuses. Yes that seems cheaper than going to court and having access enforced.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't intend to become a Disneyland Dad, mostly because I can't afford it. However, I do try to make my time with them fun. They are enrolled in music lessons that they love. I take them skiing, gymnastics, to museums, lately to maple syrup farms, family visits with cousins their ages. Last week they did Easter eggs in anticipation of an Easter dinner. I also do the non-fun stuff, such as the math homework they abhor. I just don't understand where I have gone wrong.
    The children have on occasion said they wanted to stay with me as opposed to returning to their mother's, but I never take advantage of this.

    Comment


    • #17
      Links and Tayken made a valid point and who said anything about freeking DisneyLand? When my son was younger we hardly had enough for the basics.

      Having a fun environment does not need a lot of $$$. Be present, listen to their ideas and be involved in what interest them. We played board games (and still do) betting treats or chores. Building snow men, working together on projects whatever.

      Being pleasant and keeping things relaxed will make life fun for the kids. No need to have extra cash - it comes down to feeling comfortable with each other as opposed to stressed out and competing with the EX for love.

      Your children are too young to have to make these decisions, an opinion yes, but not the veto power that your Ex is using on you. Let them complain all they want but be firm about Daddy's time. If your ex persists in keeping them from you, you have no choice but going 'legal' and getting your rights as a father respected.
      Last edited by Janibel; 03-25-2016, 09:05 AM. Reason: more stuff

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Janibel View Post
        Links and Tayken made a valid point and who said anything about freeking DisneyLand? When my son was younger we hardly had enough for the basics.

        Having a fun environment does not need a lot of $$$. Be present, listen to their ideas and be involved in what interest them. We played board games (and still do) betting treats or chores. Building snow men, working together on projects whatever.
        I'm far from perfect, but I do all of this. I'm a very involved parent.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by stripes View Post
          That's really miserable.

          Do you have communications between you and ex in which she says that she will not be dropping the kids off and you tell her this is a violation of the court order? If so, gather them together and go see a lawyer. From your message, it sounds like this has happened three times in the last week, which is three times too many. You need some legal intervention now.

          Just to reinforce what others have said: the kids are absolutely not competent to decide which parent they want to stay with, and your ex is not entitled to vary the court order. I would not discuss this with the kids in the hopes that they will change their minds - they have already been given way too much power in this situation.

          Send your ex a message saying that you expect the kids to be brought to your place within the hour. If this does not happen, you will be seeking legal advice on Tuesday morning.

          My 2 cents worth is that I think Stripes is correct. I particularly agree with communicating with your ex that she bring the kids to you. That way she will have to deal with her own manipulations (and resulting tantrums) of children.

          If kids were allowed to decide then we wouldn't need family court.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by nogoingback View Post
            I'm far from perfect, but I do all of this. I'm a very involved parent.
            Well then your biggest problem is not the kids refusal but getting your Ex to follow what is court ordered - as suggested above, get the communication going with the ex, insisting on your court ordered time.

            If she still refuses you, document it and go straight to your lawyer. The worse thing that you could do is let time go by while the kids and Ex think of this situation as "normal" ... it's not, nor is it legal. Once they reach their teens, you will have even more trouble getting them to spend time with you if the problem is not taken care of now.

            Comment


            • #21
              I said disneyland dad as a reference to the dads who do so much to be the cool parent. Not that he has to go there, just that he offer that.

              The point was that it doesnt matter what he does, his ex is withholding access and hiding behind the kids. Plus she brainwashing and manipulating the kids to do what she wants. Those kids are in a really shitty situation and HAVE to say what mom wants because shes probably laying on the whole "you dont love me" bs thick. My mother did the same thing. We had to return gifts, cancel visits and not take phone calls. Why? Because she hated my father and if we didnt hate him too then we didnt love her enough.

              Speak to a lawyer, file the paperwork, get it enforced. Otherwise you will lose your kids.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                I think Tayken's advice is a recipe for a "fun" arms race
                Actually, it wasn't my advice it was Links17. You should go back and re-read the posting where I quoted him. Furthermore, I don't recall Links17 directly stating to create a "fun arms race". You have chosen to imply this in your reply.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                which will be expensive in both financial and emotional terms.
                Average motion costs from about 10,000 to 15,000 if you have a good lawyer in southern Ontario. That is about 187 video games at 80$ a game or 833 Skylanders. Not sure how it is "epensive in both financial" terms.

                Lawyers and court battles are significantly more expensive and less rewarding for children than having fun with their parents. As recommended by Links17.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                create a welcoming environment for the kids -
                Because going to court is significantly more expensive and emotionally damaging to children than computer games, Disney World and Skylanders.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                ... they should be spending time with him per the court order
                You are expecting the other parent to act reasonably in this matter. The OP has already disclosed that the other parent hasn't taken the children for their court ordered access. Other alternative methods (other than court) is better than simply giving up or expecting the other parent to act reasonably.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                Trying to appeal to the kids is a losing game because Mom will always one-up him.
                How do you know this?

                Good Luck!
                Tayken

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                  Dont listen to links. My partner tried the Disney Dad route and it still didnt work. Your ex is manipulating them. Nothing you do will change that. When shes forced to hand them over things will change. Your kids are being brainwashed.
                  Brainwashed? that is a bit extreme. The other parent isn't engaged in "brainwashing". They are simply refusing to follow a court order based on the emotional statements of children who are less than 12 years old. If the other parent in this situation was in fact reasonable they would take the children and work with the other parent in this matter. Rather than letting the children dictate. The other parent wants this result.

                  As Justice Quinn stated in Gerenia v. Harb:
                  Undoubtedly, there are many tasks that a child, when asked may find unpleasant to perform. But ask we must and perform they must. A child who refused to go on an access visit should be treated by the custodial parent the same as a child who refused to go to school or otherwise misbehaves. The job of a parent is to parent.
                  This quote provided above appears in so much case law but, parents still use the excuse of children not wanting to go for access with the other parent. What is more shocking is how many lawyers practising in family law don't know this quote.

                  Good Luck!
                  Tayken

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                    I am very surprised by you Tayken. I would have expected more from you than telling the OP to be a Disneyland Dad.
                    Whey did I tell the OP to be a Disneyland dad? Again, assumptions make an...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nogoingback View Post
                      CanLII - 2012 ONSC 4234 (CanLII)
                      CanLII - 2014 ONSC 2738 (CanLII)
                      Family Law | Halifax & Darmouth | Sealy Cornish Coulthard

                      I found these to be helpful. Some parallels to my situation.

                      According to Justice Gordon, "At a minimum one might expect the following (from the withholding parent):
                      • A discussion with the child to determine why he does not want to go
                      • Communication with the other parent to advise of the difficulty and discuss how it might be resolved
                      • Offering the child an incentive to go, or some form of discipline should he continue to refuse"

                      None of these have happened with my ex.
                      These are all criteria that judges consider when contemplating an order of contempt for failure to comply with an access order. The challenge is you better have a lot of money to get to that point. The reality check is eliminating the 'excuse' by being an involved and fun parent is much cheaper than fighting it out in court. It also provides a better resolution for the children with the least amount of conflict.

                      Good Luck!
                      Tayken

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                        Brainwashed? that is a bit extreme. The other parent isn't engaged in "brainwashing". They are simply refusing to follow a court order based on the emotional statements of children who are less than 12 years old. If the other parent in this situation was in fact reasonable they would take the children and work with the other parent in this matter. Rather than letting the children dictate. The other parent wants this result.
                        Perhaps brainwashing is extreme, but call it what you will: bad-mouthing, disparaging, coercion etc., it has been happening. I don't have a lot of firm evidence, but when my ex writes to me saying my children don't want to come to my house until I pay support (admittedly, I was late last month), I think that is pretty bad.

                        Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                        This quote provided above appears in so much case law but, parents still use the excuse of children not wanting to go for access with the other parent. What is more shocking is how many lawyers practising in family law don't know this quote.

                        Good Luck!
                        Tayken
                        Thanks for this quote. Very helpful- I will use it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by nogoingback View Post
                          The children have on occasion said they wanted to stay with me as opposed to returning to their mother's, but I never take advantage of this.
                          Because you are acting as Justice Quinn says... As a parent. The other parent is not. Going to court on this matter would be substantially more expensive than trying to improve the residential situation for the children if they have complaints.

                          Scrivo v. Scrivo, 2014 ONSC 3779 (CanLII) - 2014-06-20
                          Scrivo v. Scrivo, 2013 ONSC 4655 (CanLII) - 2013-07-12
                          Scrivo v. Scrivo, 2013 ONSC 2364 (CanLII) - 2013-04-24
                          Scrivo v. Scrivo, 2012 ONSC 2727 (CanLII) - 2012-05-04

                          $24,829.63 in costs to bring contempt. In the end the child didn't go for access but, the parent did get costs awarded against the other parent.

                          [25] Justice Greer noted this point in Sickinger v. Sickinger 2009 CanLII 28203 (ON SC), 2009 CanLII 28203, [2009] O.J.No. 2306 at para. 30 saying, “The parent does not have to force a child to go with the other parent but should “require” the child to do. A failure to require the child to do that is considered contempt.” See: V.(S.) v I. (T.), 2009 Carswell Ont 1023 (S.C.J.).

                          Source: Scrivo v. Scrivo, 2013 ONSC 2364 (CanLII), par. 25, http://canlii.ca/t/fx8hz#par25
                          If you don't have the resources (and time) to bring the matter to court you need to find other alternative remedies that are within your control. (Like improving the situation while the children are residing with you.)

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                            The challenge is you better have a lot of money to get to that point.
                            I don't, sadly; I will be self representing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nogoingback View Post
                              Perhaps brainwashing is extreme, but call it what you will: bad-mouthing, disparaging, coercion etc., it has been happening. I don't have a lot of firm evidence, but when my ex writes to me saying my children don't want to come to my house until I pay support (admittedly, I was late last month), I think that is pretty bad.
                              See bold above. This is the problem. You don't have a lot of evidence and I would recommend you not rely upon your emotions to make inferences on the other parent. The other parent is clearly not acting as a parent (according to Justice Quinn) but, that doesn't mean they are "bad-mouthing, disparaging" or "influencing" the children.

                              The only evidence you appear to have is that they know about child support. Which, isn't a great thing but, it doesn't constitute "brainwashing" by any definition (mild, medium or hot). It is just bad parenting.

                              Judges see that kind of "evidence" every day. Do you need to spend 25,000+ to have a judge scold the other parent?

                              Penny wise pound foolish. There are alternatives that don't need to involve conflict.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                                This is the problem. You don't have a lot of evidence and I would recommend you not rely upon your emotions to make inferences on the other parent.
                                Let me rephrase: I don't have a lot of evidence of her badmouthing me but I do have more than what I mentioned above. However, I have a lot of evidence which clearly demonstrates her non-compliance with our order: interference (showing up at school when I pickup the children), intimidating my caregiver and not allowing the caregiver to pick up the children from school, withholding the children from me when they have a common cold, or whenever she sees fit, making unilateral decisions to make up missed time after she has been traveling. The list goes on and on.

                                Comment

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