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  • Self Representation

    Hi,

    The Canadian Bar Association journal is running an article on self-representation - it seems this is something more common in Family Law court than in other courts: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...a7a3211b0e&p=1 and
    http://www.cba.org/CBA/National/Main/

    Not having represented myself in court before, I was wondering if anyone can explain why individuals are more inclined to represent themselves in Family Law court than in other courts...

  • #2
    One word, the money saved. Many of the working poor don't qualify for legal aid but cannot really afford a lawyer. The are only two alternative left:

    Walk away and abondon the situation or something worse your child;

    -or-

    Self represent your action.

    I think the decision is easy to make!


    lv

    Comment


    • #3
      that's 3 words lv LOL

      Comment


      • #4
        I will only self-represent when I can no longer afford my lawyer. My ex has legal aid, so there is no way I'm testing my luck against an actual lawyer in court. It would be different if the ex was lawyer-less, because I think I would have the advantage there.

        Comment


        • #5
          I ditto your sentiments, About Time.

          My ex won't dare to go to court if she didn't have legal aid. So, we work hard and pay taxes so the gov't in turn can create legal aid to punish us for doing just that. Perhaps that's why families don't break so easily in third world countries.

          Comment


          • #6
            I know individuals that have been to court so many times it would make your head spin. Its not that their position is unreasonable, it's just more or less the other side is represented by legal aid so there is no early settlement.

            Would you settle early if someone was footing your leagl bills?

            Another factor is the majority of legal aided funded litigants are seldom awarded costs against them even if their position is unsuccessful.

            Seems to be a flaw in the system in itself.

            lv

            Comment


            • #7
              Here’s what little I learned over the years;

              The family court is no friendly place. As a self rep, it is meant to intimidate you, shame you, belittle you, demean you, etc. If you get lucky, it goes the other way. A veteran criminal lawyer friend said to me, “he still gets nervous and, anxious before every appearance;” he’d be concerned if I wasn’t. By the time you have arrived at trial, I would hope, you have had at least a few appearances before the justices. If you were a self rep from the beginning, you would have gotten a taste of the distain the justices have for self reps. It will not get any better during trial. It will make your job allot tougher and the usual common sense stuff like (knowledge) does apply. You are not supposed to be there, the judges don’t like you being there! Family court is about money first and foremost. Without this money there is no billion dollar industry as is the case today. As a self rep you stand in privilege which basically means you can address the court. You are in front of someone who has dedicated their career to a very complex task and wields so much power over your life. You are in front of someone who yields the power over everything you hold dear in your life…..including your future and the future of your children. The family court has gotten away from applying the law to managing families which gets swayed by social climates and hidden agendas. In my opinion; the answer is to entrench the laws in equality and further, families’ have dignity rights, which should to be preserved over all else.

              There is growing problem with the increase of self reps in family law. It is being addressed at the highest levels at the Canadian Judicial Council. The Canadian Judicial Council provides the secret training for our judges. They have no interest in looking at the reason’s why there are so many self reps rather just how to deal with the situation (the business end of it $$$$). This is were article’s such as this, originate from.

              The general public at large knows that family law in this country is broken. Even on the national front, word has spread to foreign countries. Until equality in family law is entrenched in law, there can be no fundamental justice. Certainly a minority government won’t touch such a controversial issue. The last government deflected the real issues by making it all about gay marriages. It is important to understand the political environment you will be operating in.

              or;

              SillyMe

              Comment


              • #8
                From surfing the web, and participating in this forum, I see that the Family Law court procedures are spelled out on several websites and there are places to get help when going to Family Court (eg. Family Law Information Centre).

                So, the legal system itself is promoting self-representation in Family Law court, even though (according to the CBA Journal article, which is biased towards the legal profession), self-representation is a detriment - both to the legal profession and, possibly, to future respondents/applicants subject to jurisprudence.

                Then when you throw the legal aid element in, ie. individuals being able to prolong the process at no cost to them, the likelihood of self-representation increases as one, with few available funds, faced with a lengthy court case would choose to self-represent.

                In civil court there are statutes of limitations. In criminal court there are rights for the accused to a speedy trial. Why not similar rules around Family Law court?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SillyMe
                  There is growing problem with the increase of self reps in family law. It is being addressed at the highest levels at the Canadian Judicial Council. The Canadian Judicial Council provides the secret training for our judges. They have no interest in looking at the reason’s why there are so many self reps rather just how to deal with the situation (the business end of it $$$$). This is were article’s such as this, originate from.
                  After representing myself I must admit I wondered how this all works out money wise too. I did my VERY best to make sure I had all my "t"s crossed and my "i"s dotted, did my research, was never late, filed what I needed on time, etc... however even with everything I prepared myself for, there was still a LOT of time wasted because of how the "system" works that I couldn't plan on. And since my ex didn't even do NEAR the prep work I did, that too slowed down our court experience because of appearances wasted because he was completely unprepared. If that happened with me and my ex self-representing, I can only imagine the amount of court time that is wasted with so many of us self-representing.

                  On the other hand, what are we to do? The law allows us to represent ourselves (thank goodness!) Lawyers are VERY expensive. I had one for a little while, and of course ran out of funds by the time it became necessary to go to court. The law was on my side, so I wasn't too worried. I was able to make use of the duty counsels who are available at the court house. And still time got wasted because my ex did literally NO homework before coming to court.

                  I have to wonder how it works out cost-wise with all us self-representers, vs possibly making legal representation a little more affordable so that court time is more efficiently used.

                  hmmmm....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Another factor in Family Law is that perjury often runs rampant and often goes unpunished. Unfortunately there are some lawyers that use such tactics to misrepresent their clients position. On that basis, perception as a whole is a significant factor! Call it as you will, smoke and mirrors.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Self represented and my story to date

                      I have been in litigation now from January 05. I initially had a lawyer for the first year and half. I never had a good feeling about him but after my ex became a self rep and he charged me another $8k to hold her at bay, I simply joined the party and became a self rep myself. I assessed his bill and settled for an amount off this bill via mediation.

                      I found at a Settlement conference that she actually had a lawyer in reserve but never put him on record. He showed up at the conference and argued for her. I was terrified but survived. She let him go after that and then hired another lawyer who notified me of a trial date and a trial management conference. He did not reply to me and did not prepare and serve me for conference. I filed a confirmation and showed up. At that time she had two lawyers present and did not show herself. She had introduced an additional civil suit against me and the Judge ended up combining the two cases to be tried together. I ended up with another couple of court orders because they were not familiar with the case as I was and her disclosure was not complete. I was able to get a trial date for the later part of that year.

                      She was not happy with that family law lawyer and fired him and hired yet another lawyer which brought her total to four. I actually ended up hiring a lawyer and used him for coaching and advise and brought him into a examination for discovery on her civil action. I did not notify the other two lawyers until just prior to my examination. With the assistance of the lawyer we settled the civil action. I had to put him on record for a short period of time and removed him quite quickly after the examination for discovery. I discussed this with him so that there was no surprises. He has been very good to me but I cannot afford to pay and will not agree to write his fees into the settlement on our assets.

                      My ex's new lawyer threaten to bring a motion unless I conceded to adjourning the trial date. We could have gotten a new date but I found out that it was to be an agreed date to be determined at a later time. After another 8 months of battling with him over this date I was forced to bring yet another Trial Management date at which time he served me with an incomplete 17E and 13.1. Prior to the case conference I visited his office and he refused to give me the missing pages. He left me no other alternative but to ask the Judge the content of the pages. This made him look very foolish. He then proceeded to lie and say that I should have asked for it at our meeting prior to the conference. We had a short debate and he still did not comply until the next day. We ended up having another case conference and I was able to set some issues down for trial and got another date towards the end of this year. To his credit he was able to waste another year of both our lives and a sizable amount of legal fees to his credit.

                      The legal fees that my ex has expended are amazing. She raised this at the conference. I have attempted to assist her with this by trying to develop the statement of agreed facts between us. She agreed to discuss this with me and then later on informed me that her lawyer had already completed them. Trial is going to be very expensive and all I am asking for is that our marriage contract be executed according to its content. This contract I had revised 3 times and the third time it was completely redone. So far the courts have accepted this as a reasonable position.

                      I am probably looking at a total of 5 years total and the only basis for that is that she will have exhausted all her funds at that time. When you ask a lawyer how much it will cost and he asks you how much do you have, he is not kidding. There is a direct co-relation to those two issues.

                      I have two kids and it has been tough on them but I have managed to maintain a relationship with them. They have been drawn into the battle but they really were given no choice. It really is the kids that suffer in this the most. I have found the judges to be very sympathetic to their situation and have attempted to assist me in pointing this out to my ex as well as providing me access. From the onset in that they are teenagers I conceded custody and only asked for liberal access.

                      I am currently trying to obtain a CDFA, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, as I have a financial background and this I have noticed is severely lacking in the court system. Lawyers know law, and I have seen comments jokingly made about lawyer math during trials. Where I work is close to the courts so I sit in regularly on motions and trials and have learned immensely from that exercise. Only one percent of these cases ever go to trial so where a lawyer who has been practicing for 15 or more years it is feasible that he has never gone to trial. Good question to ask your lawyer but people rarely do. "Have you ever taken a case to trial before"

                      I apologize for the length of this post but as you can imagine I have become quite passionate about this issue over the years.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by selfrep
                        I have been in litigation now from January 05. I initially had a lawyer for the first year and half. I never had a good feeling about him but after my ex became a self rep and he charged me another $8k to hold her at bay, I simply joined the party and became a self rep myself. I assessed his bill and settled for an amount off this bill via mediation.

                        I found at a Settlement conference that she actually had a lawyer in reserve but never put him on record. He showed up at the conference and argued for her. I was terrified but survived. She let him go after that and then hired another lawyer who notified me of a trial date and a trial management conference. He did not reply to me and did not prepare and serve me for conference. I filed a confirmation and showed up. At that time she had two lawyers present and did not show herself. She had introduced an additional civil suit against me and the Judge ended up combining the two cases to be tried together. I ended up with another couple of court orders because they were not familiar with the case as I was and her disclosure was not complete. I was able to get a trial date for the later part of that year.

                        She was not happy with that family law lawyer and fired him and hired yet another lawyer which brought her total to four. I actually ended up hiring a lawyer and used him for coaching and advise and brought him into a examination for discovery on her civil action. I did not notify the other two lawyers until just prior to my examination. With the assistance of the lawyer we settled the civil action. I had to put him on record for a short period of time and removed him quite quickly after the examination for discovery. I discussed this with him so that there was no surprises. He has been very good to me but I cannot afford to pay and will not agree to write his fees into the settlement on our assets.

                        My ex's new lawyer threaten to bring a motion unless I conceded to adjourning the trial date. We could have gotten a new date but I found out that it was to be an agreed date to be determined at a later time. After another 8 months of battling with him over this date I was forced to bring yet another Trial Management date at which time he served me with an incomplete 17E and 13.1. Prior to the case conference I visited his office and he refused to give me the missing pages. He left me no other alternative but to ask the Judge the content of the pages. This made him look very foolish. He then proceeded to lie and say that I should have asked for it at our meeting prior to the conference. We had a short debate and he still did not comply until the next day. We ended up having another case conference and I was able to set some issues down for trial and got another date towards the end of this year. To his credit he was able to waste another year of both our lives and a sizable amount of legal fees to his credit.

                        The legal fees that my ex has expended are amazing. She raised this at the conference. I have attempted to assist her with this by trying to develop the statement of agreed facts between us. She agreed to discuss this with me and then later on informed me that her lawyer had already completed them. Trial is going to be very expensive and all I am asking for is that our marriage contract be executed according to its content. This contract I had revised 3 times and the third time it was completely redone. So far the courts have accepted this as a reasonable position.

                        I am probably looking at a total of 5 years total and the only basis for that is that she will have exhausted all her funds at that time. When you ask a lawyer how much it will cost and he asks you how much do you have, he is not kidding. There is a direct co-relation to those two issues.

                        I have two kids and it has been tough on them but I have managed to maintain a relationship with them. They have been drawn into the battle but they really were given no choice. It really is the kids that suffer in this the most. I have found the judges to be very sympathetic to their situation and have attempted to assist me in pointing this out to my ex as well as providing me access. From the onset in that they are teenagers I conceded custody and only asked for liberal access.

                        I am currently trying to obtain a CDFA, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, as I have a financial background and this I have noticed is severely lacking in the court system. Lawyers know law, and I have seen comments jokingly made about lawyer math during trials. Where I work is close to the courts so I sit in regularly on motions and trials and have learned immensely from that exercise. Only one percent of these cases ever go to trial so where a lawyer who has been practicing for 15 or more years it is feasible that he has never gone to trial. Good question to ask your lawyer but people rarely do. "Have you ever taken a case to trial before"

                        I apologize for the length of this post but as you can imagine I have become quite passionate about this issue over the years.

                        It appears you have a real circus on your hands...

                        Comment

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