Asking for feedback re: appropriate vacation time for custodial/non-custodial parents

[OneLovingDad]

Hello all...

This is my 1st post and I need help/feedback. Me and my ex are arguing over the summer holiday schedule. Our parenting plan allows us to negotiate summer schedule every year. My ex is a teacher so she has the whole July/August off. Our daughter is 3 yrs old and mom is the primary custodial parent (surprise... surprise...). I do have a more generous access schedule than they typical non-custodial parent (2 overnight a week plus a 3 hour weekday visit).

My daughter's mom has been requesting 6 week vacation to take my daughter out of province to visit family. I have denied this request on the grounds that 6 week separation is way too long to be separated from any parent and have propose two weeks for each parents. My daughter's mom disagrees and we are now implementing our dispute mechanism clause in our parenting plan and bringing this issue to a parent co-ordinator to mediate and arbitrate a decision.

After our first one-on-one meeting with the PC, the PC has ask each parent to come up with creative options to help resolve this dispute and bring them to our upcoming mediation meeting. I suspect that each of us will continue to bring options that still reflect 6 weeks and 2 weeks position. I suspect my daughter's mom will break her request down to 2 x 3 weeks position. I have not decided how to position myself yet.

Based on my research (which I haven't been able to find a lot on this particular subject), Kelly & Lamb, two well known child psychologist whose research is often used in custody and access, has listed in some of their work that

"Preschool children can tolerate lengthier separations than toddlers can,
and many are comfortable with extended weekends in each parent’s home as
well as overnights during the week. In general, however, most preschool chil
dren become stressed and unnecessarily overburdened by separations from
either parent that last more than 3 or 4 days. The exception might be planned vacations, in which parents and siblings are fully available to engage pre-school children in novel, stimulating, and pleasurable activities. Even so, most parents would be advised to limit vacations at this age to 7 days and to schedule several vacations rather than one single lengthy vacation."

Other than that viewpoint and the generally viewpoint that maintaining routines are highly encourage, I am searching for input/viewpoints/feedback on what is a reasonable duration for a 3yr to be separated from a non-custodial parent. I find that 2 x 3 weeks is still way too long within a duration of 9 weeks. Shouldn't non-custodial parents have the opportunities to memorable summer memories too.

[dinkyface]

Routines are going to be shot to hell by summer vacations anyways - so what becomes important there is security (attention/love) and some common routine (e.g. keeping some snuggly/blankie for sleeping, same stories/games around bedtime, favourite breakfast cereals) and enough rest (requires quiet times alone w parent).

What are you really worried about? Are you genuinely worried that your daughter will be stressed by a separation from you? Are you feeling that you'd never be granted the same privilege, so why should she have it?

Would mom be agreeable to some sort of skype/video contact during the trip?

Doesn't your custory agreement indicate how much time each parent has? Sounds like you feel that you would only have a single week, 3 times (just making that up).

[OneLovingDad]

We'll... looking at my needs only... I love my daughter and would love to maintain regular physical contact with her. I already have limited time with her and suspending my access to enable my ex to have an extended summer vacation I view is sacrificing my needs for my ex's needs. Sure... my daughter will love seeing her mom's side of the family (i.e grandparents, cousins, nieces) and I do not want to deny her that experience. The question is what is a reasonable amount of time as every week she spends with mom's family, I and my side of the family loses access.

We've tried skype/video/phone and her attention span to this communication medium is short if it grabs her attention at all... she may be engage in play with her cousins.

Looking at it from purely the non-selfish side of things, I would assume long duration with mom only may cause separation anxiety when she returns back to my care, assuming that Lamb and Kelly's research has validity. I still see limited examples of anxiety when I pick her up for my visitation (i.e. some crying when mom goes back inside her house). It doesn't happen very often but it does happen.

Plus would there be anxiety caused when she is return from a 3 week vacation and then she starts a week or two vacation with me. Or should there be a transitionally period for her to readjust (say a week back to the normal schedule). If that is the case, that would only allow me to have her for maybe one or two weeks during the summer. Then this means that as the non-custodial parent, I will only be allowed limited opportunities to build summer memories....

Overall, the risk/reward for my daughter to go to Nova Scotia for 6 weeks doesn't make sense. Won't she have a meaningful experience with less time? Or is experiences with the extended family with the custodial parent more valuable than the experiences with the non-custodial parent and their extended family?

[OneLovingDad]

Doesn't your custory agreement indicate how much time each parent has? Sounds like you feel that you would only have a single week, 3 times (just making that up).

And no... our parenting plan does not outline the exact time each parents will have for summer vacation. It is negotiable every year. Don't ask me why we went down this path...

[HammerDad]

Have you suggested alternating years with equally lengthy vacation periods? So if she gets 6 weeks this year, you request an equal amount the following.

What about agreeing to a 4 week vacation to each parent? One parent gets July, the other August.

I don't have an issue with the length of the vacation SO LONG AS you are provided with an equal opponunity such vacation in the future OR you are provided with makeup time ASAP for any and all missed parenting time.

From a developmental stand point, it is probably better that the vacation not be so long and/or all in one shot. But if you can say, "OK, you get 6 weeks this year if I can get 6 weeks next year and we going on an annual rotating schedule from there", you may get some compromise. Or, maybe more likely, she won't agree to being away from the child for such time, at which point you ask "if you won't agree to such a long period away from our daughter, why should I?"

[OneLovingDad]

Your right... she is reluctant for any long duration away from our child. BTW: She did get approx the same duration last year but concessions were made in advancing the regular schedule to get that. And that agreement was made without prejudice.

I suspect she will propose 2 x 3 week breaks. And she will likely ask for that every year (she's a teacher). The PC seem to hint that vacation time doesn't have to be equal. Technically, if I got two week vacation, that would approx the required amount of make up the time.

My ex doesn't seem to want to budge from the 6 weeks time frame. That's why we had to go to the PC.

I will have to admit that I'm sadden to hear from the forum that there isn't much resistance to the 6 week proposal. In this custody experience, I've been fighting for equal access and equal treatment as a parent. I guess even with the summer schedule, I should prepare myself for not having equal opportunities to build summer memories too.

[OneLovingDad]

OR you are provided with makeup time ASAP for any and all missed parenting time.

My ex made the argument about me only getting two weeks for her six weeks using that math. So if we hold that argument is true, for parents that don't have generous vacation time... let's say two weeks, than the standard non-custodial parents with alternating weekends should only get two and a half day vacation for every two week vacation with the custodial parent.

I thought summer vacations were opportunities for non-custodial parents to build on their parent-child relationship and possibly make up for lost opportunities that the normal schedule doesn't allow for. Not an opportunity for custodial parents to limit it further.

[dinkyface]

The message that you keep coming back to is that you don't want to give the 6 weeks because she would not give it to you. It's not a good reason to prevent the 6 weeks ... but it IS a good way to get some agreement that you would have at least 50-50 time each summer. Or possibly because your ex is off work for the summer, maybe you would get every march break (instead of alternating), and 1 week less in the summer.

Your points about what you have seen in your daughter's actual behaviour are FAR more relevant than any study. There are tons of studies out there, and many that disagree with each other. So they are not really very useful in arguments.

You comment that your regular schedule is generous - but really it is a typical 'screwjob' sechedule i.e. 35% is safely under 40%, which ensrues that you will alway pay full table child support. The fact that you feel it is generous is interesting though...like you are glad that you have even this amount, but at the same time are wanting more. I guess it is early days for you, and you are still sorting out how this schedule works for your daughter and you in terms of bonding.

[OneLovingDad]

I don't believe that I actually stated my needs. My argument is that 6 weeks, even if it's broken down into 2 x 3 week periods, is too long away from any parent. I am not asking for 6 weeks as I think it's too long for me. I recommend 2 to 4 weeks each and we follow the regular schedule when it isn't a vacation period. The fact is that my ex will withdraw my daughter from daycare on the regular schedule during the summer so my ex will have a significant increase in access to my daughter without the summer vacation time. The benefit of being a teacher. I don't have that luxury. I'm fine with that although there might be a risk of increase separation anxiety... However, if I have regular contact, that may reduce it.

Why is 6 weeks within a 9 week period too long?

1. Possible risk of unnecessary separation anxiety... Maybe there will be some anxiety and maybe there won't be. My daughter has demonstrated some separation anxiety from being apart from mom currently. Very few instances but the instances exist. Does the risk outweigh the rewards? Will my daughter have a meaningful experience with her extended family with only two to four weeks perhaps...

2. It limites my opportunities for my summer schedule. She takes 6 of those weeks... the remaining 3 weeks... is she with me for the entire 3 weeks or do we have a transition for my daughter to adjust back to being in my care or transition back to daycare (in the fall). If we build in an adjustment period... that limits my summer vacation to 1-2 weeks.

3. The routines that I develop during the year gets broken (i.e. I've been doing a vegetable garden with her... how does that impact her experience with that).

[OneLovingDad]

You comment that your regular schedule is generous - but really it is a typical 'screwjob' sechedule i.e. 35% is safely under 40%, which ensrues that you will alway pay full table child support. The fact that you feel it is generous is interesting though...like you are glad that you have even this amount, but at the same time are wanting more. I guess it is early days for you, and you are still sorting out how this schedule works for your daughter and you in terms of bonding.

I know that and my aim overall is "shared parenting". In our mediation during our parent plan development, she was offering only the typical schedule. It was only based on concessions was I able to advance it more but she continues to hold the line.

Hell... giving her the generous summer schedule may create a larger problem in reaching shared parenting status.

But I am at least happy to have see her more than the norm. And our schedule is not typical too. It isn't alternating weekends. I have one weekend overnight each week, one weekday overnight and a weekday 3 hour visit. I pretty much see my daughter every other day. So to go to from that to not seeing her for three weeks will be hard on me.

[OneLovingDad]

maybe you would get every march break (instead of alternating), and 1 week less in the summer.

And she gets every march break although my time is made up. Because of her teacher's schedule, I've allowed her every opportunity to go visit her family out of province. I'm not denying my daughter the opportunity for her to build a relationship with my ex's extended family. I just want to be reasonable with the time she is going to be separated from me and my extended family. I would love to have EQUAL opportunity in the summer schedule but I'm learning equality doesn't seem to mean much in custody battles.

That's why I came here to get feedback/ideas about what would make reasonable arguments to prevent 6 weeks. I can imagine in the next few years as my daughter gets older and use to long separation from her parents, my ex is just going to ask for the whole summer.

[dinkyface]

You are very afraid of losing your connection with your daughter, and that is clouding your thinking.

Stop thinking about preventing the 6 weeks (the negative approach), and start putting more energy into how to protect/increase YOUR time with your daughter (the positive approach). ***It is entirely reasonable***

It sounds like you have already given up on the idea of pushing for reasonable summer time, and therefore you are falling back to the negative stance of denying the 6 weeks.

[billm]

I would never agree to 6 weeks without seeing my child at that age, and I would bet that your ex would not either. 3 weeks, maybe once a year, but not back to back.

Also, you may have more access than is *typical* for a man, but I would not call it *normal* for a dedicated and loving parent to not equally raise their child with the other parent. You've have been programmed by the system!

Totally unreasonable for your child to be away from you for 6 weeks. Like I said, I would bet that your ex would NEVER agree to that, but she thinks its her child, not the both of yours, and you have let her get away with that thinking. Time to stop.

Perhaps you can reduce the time frame (to 3 weeks), and also put a visit in there for you (ie you travel to NS and spend some days with her, either with or without the ex's family).

[OneLovingDad]

That's why I'm in this postion. And I believe the ex is going to propose 2 three week vacations. She will return to the province for approx 2 weeks to allow me to see my daughter. I still think it is way too long. Maybe I'd consider 2 x two week vacations with a month in between. Part of that month would be the normal schedule and part of that month would be vacation time for dad.

And I reject the idea of me going out-of-province. She propose that to me and I can't see what I should spend what little money I have and my vacation time to a vacation location of not my choosing to enable my ex to have 6 weeks. Better for her to return back to Ontario on her dime with my daughter and thus allowing me to spend my time/resources on a vacation that both my daughter and I will enjoy.

And the last time I spent time with my ex's family, I got into a fight with their mom. Her mom decided to share her opinion to me one of of the matters me and the ex was feuding on. Not a pleasant position for me to be in.

[HammerDad]

IMO, you have the wrong focus here.

You state that you have to negotiate each year a vacation schedule AND she gets each March Break. What about Christmas Break, I hope you share in that.

What it sounds like is she gets all the vacation/holiday time, but you are offered makeup time for missed parenting time. I think it would be better for you and everyone involved if you used this opportunity to negotiate a more fair schedule. State that you don't agree to 6 weeks away, suggest 2x2 week periods. But then request the same 2x2 week option. State that you are unable to accomodate such a long period in between your time with your child, as you don't feel like that is in the childs best interests.

But I would use this opportunity to get some vacation time for yourself. If she wants 6 weeks, you bottom line is 2 two week period, non-consecutive, with makeup time AND that you are allotted at least 2 weeks vacation with your child each summer AND you get 1/2 of Christmas break AND you get every other March Break etc.

In any court you would get every other march break and a share of the christmas break. You would also get at least 2 weeks in the summer. I would use her wishes to negotiate a better agreement, one that doesn't require you guys having to revisit this each year.