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  • Costs and how do they really work?

    Ok I just have been spending time trying to really understand how and when costs are assigned? I assume it is at the end? The scenario I am trying to get a handle on is: One - is a simple taking the other party in front of a judge with the worst case in the world. This person can expect some costs being asigned to him for his ex's fees.

    My first question is, can costs be looked at issue by issue or only at the very end? Second - If one party brings to court the other party by means of say a motion (would the answer be the same for a case conference or similar?) so the motion is made and in reality the issue is really reasonable and valid to bring before the court. There will be a decision so that would bring a winner and a loser. Would the costs still be assigned to the loser for that particular motion or could it be ruled that each party will just pay their own?

  • #2
    Originally posted by ddol1 View Post
    Ok I just have been spending time trying to really understand how and when costs are assigned? I assume it is at the end? The scenario I am trying to get a handle on is: One - is a simple taking the other party in front of a judge with the worst case in the world. This person can expect some costs being asigned to him for his ex's fees.

    My first question is, can costs be looked at issue by issue or only at the very end? Second - If one party brings to court the other party by means of say a motion (would the answer be the same for a case conference or similar?) so the motion is made and in reality the issue is really reasonable and valid to bring before the court. There will be a decision so that would bring a winner and a loser. Would the costs still be assigned to the loser for that particular motion or could it be ruled that each party will just pay their own?
    1. Costs can be requested at any proceeding before the court. Even for a Conference (case, trial, settlement) but, generally the conference judge writes up in the endorsement resulting that the costs are to be determined by the justice hearing the motion and/or trial.

    2. Costs should be always requested for any appearance before the court (see point 1).

    3. Costs are determined AFTER a motion and/or trial is completed. Justice will often order that costs be submitted, limit the number of pages to the submission and specify filing deadlines (i.e. # of days after the order is issued).

    For example from a random search in CanLII:

    Costs may be addressed in writing, if not agreed. The mother may serve and file up to three pages of argument, plus a costs summary and any relevant offers. The father may serve and file a responding argument of up to three pages, plus a costs summary and any relevant offers. The mother may serve and file a one page reply argument. The mother is responsible for having the file sent to me. If either party wishes, costs may be spoken to for 30 minutes on any day I am hearing motions or trials, by booking time through the trial coordinator. If no appointment is sought by June 30, the costs will be deemed to have been settled by the parties.
    4. Costs are argued on the success of the parties. If you requested SS and didn't get it in the order then costs won't be in your favour on that point. Most justices look at the two arguments presented, who on balance was the successful party, any offers to settle on the matter ordered by the court (and the costs to create and serve these offers) and orders costs accordingly. So, yes, costs are considered on an "issue by issue" basis quite often.

    But, when limited to 3 pages of written text per the example... To be very honest with you ddol1... You are going to struggle significantly if you try to get too granular on the issues and the judge will ignore the details and only look at the "chunky" major issues ordered.

    Good Luck!
    Tayken
    Last edited by Tayken; 11-20-2012, 10:25 PM.

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    • #3
      Tayken beat me to it. Good advice. Pretty much what I was going to say.
      Last edited by Nadia; 11-20-2012, 10:28 PM.

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      • #4
        Thank you for the well worded answer.... something I have been not quite grasping, for myself I suppose it is something that I have been trying to get a handle on and not necessarily for any particular issue. As Tayken pointed out, worring about the details which I have instructed my lawyer to conserve the frivoulous stuff and just work towards the three or four main issues and be done - if they are willing to negotiate, even come to the table I am ok with doing just that and I wish this would be the case, or steer it into court at the least cost possible. So far I am a little unnerved in the fact that my ex's lawyer is a wonder at genterating letters without substance, or just trying to bring up what I have learned are non cogent issues to the matter at hand. Property division. Even if we do not respond it still is something I am just not sure about - they can talk and do letters all day long and not produce something... my lawyer has given each to me and he is very specific on what he wants me to do or answer which are issues that are to do with what needs to be done now. But I do believe I am fully off topic now so I stop before I crash!! thanks to both Tayken and Nadia!

        This is something my lawyer had tried to explain as we could have a motion for one, two or three items and how just one point lost could sour the costs determination towards having to pay where he is of the opinion that the main motion, the SS is something that we should be awarded costs versus my paying more.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nadia View Post
          Tayken beat me to it. Good advice. Pretty much what I was going to say.
          Actually, you deleted your answer which was a well written and compressed right down to the facts of what "costs" are all about.

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          • #6
            As Tayken stated above, costs are only awarded AFTER a judgement has been rendered. However, you can have costs reserved during a case conference so that these are included. You should be asking for costs to be reserved at each court appearance.

            An award of costs is based on a number of factors including the following:

            1. How far is the Judgement rendered by the court similar to what was requested as relief by each party?

            2. Did the party in question (who "won") put forward a offer to settle that was equal to or less then what the court ordered in the end. Thereby one could argue subsequent litigation was unnecessary had the opposing party agreed to the offer to settle.

            3. Where there is a mixed outcome on a number of issues it all depends upon how much "time" was spent on addressing each issue.

            The actual award of costs will depend upon cost submissions made by both parties. Here it is helpful to make reference to family court rules in respect to "successful party" and "offer to settle." I'm afraid I can't remember the rule numbers off hand. You also need to include in detail any disbursements that occured, actual legal fees spent and the time you spent in preparing the materials, attending court etc.

            The purpose of awarding costs is to send a clear message to the unreasonable party that in future they should try settle matters outside of court and consider reasonable offers to settle. Sometimes, that message does not get through. For example, the opposing party in my case has had three seperate cost awards rendered against him.

            The key to having costs awarded is be able to demonstrate you have made every possible effort to try and settle the matter outside of court including sending the opposing party your "best" offer to settle.

            This has to be the lowest, bottom rock, hard to swallow ...but you'll agree to it to avoid costly litigation... kind of offer.
            Last edited by Nadia; 11-21-2012, 11:33 AM.

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            • #7
              I attended a hearing today where I was the applicant. My ex, once again didn't show. I received everything I asked for and at the end of the hearing the judge asked if I had any costs. I hadn't planned on being asked since I was told on this forum and by duty council at the courthouse that I wouldn't get them because I was self-representing and because I hadn't included it in my affidavit, but I scribbled down a list anyway and lo and behold, the judge brought it up! I informed her that I didn't have a formal list. She was fine with that and asked for my dollar value. I gave her a dollar amount, quickly told her how I came to this number (ie: #hrs researching and writing affidavits,,#hrs missed work for attending hearing, #hrs waiting in lineups at filing counter etc...told her I was asking for $50 dollars an hour times the number of hours) and she granted it! She didn't ask to see my breakdown at all.

              Duty council congratulated me and informed me that this rarely happens, but it's proof that it can!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by court View Post
                Duty council congratulated me and informed me that this rarely happens, but it's proof that it can!
                Part two though, is getting the ex to actually pay the costs, which is just as hard, I hear.

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                • #9
                  Yeah, I hear that too. How does one enforce it? I am going through FRO to get support now. Is it safe to presume that FRO has nothing to do with enforcing costs?

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                  • #10
                    FRO will enforce the costs application if there is wording in the costs order.

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                    • #11
                      I have a cost order that will eventually be enforced through FRO.

                      Be mindful that FRO will only enforce if the Cost Order is carefully worded to indicate that the cost order will be "treated as support" and "enforced through the Family Responsibility Office." It will also need to include all the clauses that a typical Support Order enforceable through FRO includes.
                      Last edited by Nadia; 11-23-2012, 10:20 PM.

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                      • #12
                        It is not worded like that at all. Is this something I can have changed? Or would that be more work than it's worth?

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                        • #13
                          do the math.... 3 p 15 hrs lawyers fees in comparison ... only you can be the judge of that

                          If you are self represented it would probably be worth your time.

                          If you can't figure out the basic math then it would be safe to assume you have lower intelligence. Possibly you can get help from a social services agency, in that case, who would make your business their business and help you out.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by arabian View Post
                            If you can't figure out the basic math then it would be safe to assume you have lower intelligence. Possibly you can get help from a social services agency, in that case, who would make your business their business and help you out.
                            What was the purpose of saying this? To be mean? Did it make you feel good to get that dig in? If so, I feel sad for you.

                            Perhaps to avoid an asinine comment such as this, I should have mentioned that the costs are not as much of a concern to me if the process of getting the order worded properly would take another year of court visits. If that is the case then my time is more precious.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by arabian View Post
                              If you can't figure out the basic math then it would be safe to assume you have lower intelligence..


                              Weren't you the one chastising people recently for not being friendly? I know you like to tell the "truth", but the above is not truth, no matter how you spin it. It is just an insult against a random person on the internet.

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