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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #11  
Old 11-06-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Penelope753 View Post
I am willing to spend whatever it takes to be free and to protect the children.

So, for example, would you be willing to spend $90,000 on this court case? That is not even the upper limit of course, but if your opponent is truly an intractable adversary who is completely high conflict, you are probably looking at spending at least that much.


My recommendation in that case would be to go for a cheap lawyer. This is going to drag on, and if you get a "top" lawyer, the likely result is that you will run out of money before the trial and have to self-represent. A normal lawyer is just as good as a top lawyer unless your case is especially complex.


Offhand, your case does not sound especially complex.


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however most people arent divorcing a person with diagnosed NPD
Do you have any documentation that provides this diagnosis?


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I will be fighting tooth and nail for is limited time spent with the children
You are hoping to alienate the kids from their father.


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there are beginning attempts at parental alienation tactics occurring before my eyes, conditioning almost.
He is looking to alienate the kids from you.


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I will be fighting tooth and nail for is limited time spent with the children
So you are hoping to alienate the kids from their father.


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there are beginning attempts at parental alienation tactics occurring before my eyes, conditioning almost.
So he is looking to alienate the kids from you.


The good news is that you will possibly both get your wish.


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I am looking for is someone who has experience with high conflict, NPD situations and who will fight for my children's futures.
Any lawyer you hire will have experience and will fight for your children's futures. Well, they will fight because you pay them, don't ever forget that no lawyer will actually care about your children.


Seriously, I'm not just saying that. If you pay a lawyer they will fight for you. Another lawyer will be fighting for your ex. Neither lawyer will actually be fighting for the kids. The court may order a lawyer for the kids, but that's not a guarantee, and that lawyer will not work for you.


The only thing I can guarantee is that the fight will devastate your children's financial future. Instead of owning a house, you will be renting for the rest of your life. Instead of two cars, you will be taking public transit. Your kids will have to take loans and work to pay for university. All because you couldn't even consider a resolution that didn't involve a massive legal fight.


But hot damn, as you sip that wine drink, you will be able to watch the sun set on a grateful world, knowing that a narcissist got his comeuppance.


Get a cheap lawyer, you can always move to an expensive one later.
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  #12  
Old 11-06-2019, 03:29 PM
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What kind of schedule do you want?


Would you be ok with your ex having every other weekend with the kids? Do you have an end goal in mind beyond "minimum time possible"?
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2019, 12:17 PM
LovingDad1234 LovingDad1234 is offline
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You can always check lawyerratingz.com to see how lawyers have faired in terms of reviews. Careful though as some lawyers ask that you rate them in exchange for a reduction on the invoice.

But, WHOA!, fight tooth and nail to limit or restrict the father's ability to see his kids? Spin it the other way. Fight tooth and nail to prevent your kids from having a relationship with their father?? As the Respondent to an Applicant who tried to do exactly that, I can tell you it will not work, and you will only spend LOTS of money. Money that can go towards your kids rather than a new cottage for your lawyer. Also, caution that there is tons of case law where mothers who are caught purposely denying/restricting/impeding meaningful access often lose custody altogether.

Allegations? Been there, done that. Had every allegation possible thrown at me, including the ones you mention and worse. Everyone says abuse and mental health disorders in court papers. Judges hear it each and every day. Is there a diagnosis, or is it just your opinion? Your opinion on the matter has zero weight. Abuse? Against who, and what kind? Are there police reports, or are you just saying he's emotionally abusive. Ever against the kids? Is this just your word? If yes, it has no weight. Couples argue, raise voices, get hurt feelings. Does not mean he will be abusive to the kids. Further, he can always take courses or counseling to address your concerns. Judges don't want to hear about how you argued with your ex, they want to set the new living arrangements for the kids. Period.

Based on what I read in this thread, and my own experience dealing with someone who had the same motives, I can predict how you will spend over $100k easily:
(1) You pepper your lawyer with endless phone calls where you whine on how mean your ex is. If you want to talk to him about how the last exchange was unpleasant, he will listen, but he will also bill you for it. Talk to your friends, or a therapist, its cheaper.
(2) You pepper your lawyer with every text, email, voicemail over incidents from past years where you thought your ex was mean to you. He will read everything, bill you, and none of it will ever make it into court.
(3) You and/or your ex file lengthy court documents that costs thousands to produce/review that don't focus on the issues. Focus on custody and access. Not whether or not your ex is mean.
(4) Useless settlement negotiations where you and your ex jockey for positions, fighting over every minute detail that in the end has little consequence, such as who has the child on a random snow day school closure that may never even happen.
(5) Useless settlement conferences that make no progress and only cause delay in your case (that can go on for YEARS) and will run you and your ex out of money.

What you want is closure ASAP. Set a trial date ASAP if you think negotiations will be useless. In high conflict, both sides are unreasonable and it's the lawyers that win. Be reasonable, and make reasonable offers. Take the high road. Judges don't want to see grown adults act like kids fighting over their kids.

The one who ACTS and IS reasonable will prevail. And everyone thinks THEY are the reasonable one.....so as mentioned, do your research and find out what reasonable exactly is. If you focus your papers on bashing your ex, you will lose. As FYI, the legislation looks to implement a "maximum contact principle" being that the child has the right to as much contact with EACH parent as possible. Usually that's 50/50, unless it is proven that 50/50 would harm the child. The fact that you don't like or disagree with 50/50 is not a reason. A damaging police report or CAS report is reason. Living 2 hour apart is a reason. The fact that you don't get along with your ex is not a reason. Think of your kids, and the fact that their reality now consists of mom's house and dad's house. Dad can be parent, not just be a "visitor". This is your new reality.
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2019, 02:33 PM
gettingexpensive gettingexpensive is offline
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I'm going through a messed up divorce with someone that is diagnosed BPD and likely NPD (I guess I should simply say cluster-B since there is a lot of comorbidity in there). Good luck, it will be expensive, and make sure you cross the T's and dot the I's. Document, document, document. You'll need proof of your claims.

Give this a read: http://fishermediation.com/media/pdf...ntsREPRINT.pdf

It's been a terrible year, cops, CAS, suicide threats in front of the kids, ex went through many lawyers, she is in criminal court as well. I have spent 15k on lawyer fees, with not much to show, and we aren't even started because the case conference has been post-poned twice by the ex. OCL will be involved whenever the ex fills the paperwork (or I file for contempt)

Through all of this, I'm not prohibiting communications or contact between mom and the kids. I just want it to be safe, and sane. Yes, this means going for full custody in my case, well that's what I believe. Yes, they'll go visit the ex, eventually unsupervised, and who knows, maybe sleep there at some point. But I'm not letting that happen in the near future, and I have the paperwork and CAS to support my position. But each case is different.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2019, 06:30 AM
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I'm going through a messed up divorce with someone that is diagnosed BPD and likely NPD (I guess I should simply say cluster-B since there is a lot of comorbidity in there).
You are in the 3% pool. BPD is an even more rare diagnosis in Canada. Not saying you are lying its just the odds of this are diagnosis is in winning the lottery level of statistics.

The other parent will self destruct in the courtroom if this is the case. You don't actually have to do much work. BPD person will do it all for you. Court room is the best place to bring them as they will not behave to the rules of the court room.

The one case I observed that had a truly diagnosed BPD the person actually got up from the desk beside their lawyer... ran over to the other party on the other side of the courtroom and physically started assaulting them while the judge was walking into the courtroom.

Fastest order ever made. The judge hadn't even sat down yet!

The poor bailiff didn't know what to do. The lawyer representing the person with BPD was totally blown away.

The other matter I observed is well known to this forum but, the person in question has never been diagnosed. But, highly suspected of having an Axis II disorder. They vomited in the courtroom and feigned sickness and passed out. Histrionics were ripe on that one! Funny thing is that the vomiting incident was at purge court even.
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  #16  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:55 AM
LovingDad1234 LovingDad1234 is offline
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For Penelope, it is key to differentiate between HER thoughts that he ex has all sorts of mental health issues versus an ACTUAL diagnosis by a doctor in the field of mental health. Anyone can do internet research and pinpoint attributes to their ex. Judges don't want to hear what you "think" of your ex. Is he a good parent? Does he explode on the kids? Is he irresponsible with the kids? Do you have verifiable proof of any of this or is it just your words or thoughts? You will need proper evidence rather than your opinions.

Again, you can spend THOUSANDS of dollars in legal fees against your ex, but likely is that they will get ample time with the kids. Reality check is that even if the judge finds some things concerning, the judge may order that your ex complete counseling or a course in anger management. So its up to you if you want to go down a path of spending $100,000 in legal fees. Its best to get informed of what LIKELY will play out in the court forum.
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  #17  
Old 11-18-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
You are in the 3% pool. BPD is an even more rare diagnosis in Canada. Not saying you are lying its just the odds of this are diagnosis is in winning the lottery level of statistics.

The other parent will self destruct in the courtroom if this is the case. You don't actually have to do much work. BPD person will do it all for you. Court room is the best place to bring them as they will not behave to the rules of the court room.
I sure "won the lottery". It's been diagnosed and is even mentioned in her court paperwork. She's even tried in mental health court for her criminal charges from what I was told (gotta confirm this). Let's just say that it makes for an interesting divorce.. and I'd rather not be in the 3% pool.
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  #18  
Old 11-19-2019, 01:32 PM
LovingDad1234 LovingDad1234 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gettingexpensive View Post
I sure "won the lottery". It's been diagnosed and is even mentioned in her court paperwork. She's even tried in mental health court for her criminal charges from what I was told (gotta confirm this). Let's just say that it makes for an interesting divorce.. and I'd rather not be in the 3% pool.
Trust me, you did not win the lottery. If anything, the opposite. Having NPD means that you will likely have a long, drawn out affair resulting in trial. Any settlement negotiations will be argumentative, illogical, fruitless and irrelevant to the points or issues, racking up legal bills. Your ex will fight tooth and nail for every single principle regardless of how ridiculous or unreasonable their arguments are. The reality is, is that even having NPD doesn't mean much with respect to access. Having NPD means that you and your ex likely bicker like oil and water. Your ex can be a perfectly fine parent without you in the picture, regardless of the condition, and as I mentioned, judges are highly unlikely to create situation where children don't have relationships with the other parent. Your ex will agree to counseling and courses, and likely have generous access.
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  #19  
Old 11-19-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingDad1234 View Post
Trust me, you did not win the lottery. If anything, the opposite. Having NPD means that you will likely have a long, drawn out affair resulting in trial. ....
Oh I know. That's why I put the "won the lottery" in quotes. It's already a waste of money and a nightmare. The only thing keeping my sanity is the release conditions which came with a no-contact order. The fact that the kids are old enough may also help a bit (11 and 15) so hopefully, OCL will allow them to have their voice heard. The paperwork from CAS may also help.

But yes, it's pointless arguments and principles. I never thought that would be possible, you have to live it to believe it.

And through all of this, my goal is not to prevent access, I just want it to be "safe". Sadly, the ex doesn't realize that this is something that takes many months to come back once eroded. In the meantime, I'm the one dealing with a 11 yo son who has frequent suicidal thoughts. If only she realized the damage that she did.
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  #20  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:22 PM
LovingDad1234 LovingDad1234 is offline
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OK, glad to hear you are fully on top of what to expect. Having negotiations with someone who is impossible to deal with will drive up your costs. I have lived it. At times, you think that they are purposefully trying to run you out of money, which is a possibility too. I am sorry to hear that you are going through. Stay strong and spend wisely. It adds up fast.
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