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Federal Pension: Forms 2483 and 2488

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  • Federal Pension: Forms 2483 and 2488

    My spouse and I have agreed to separate. However, our approach to the paper process of separation are at different points. My spouse will not initiate the process from her perspective until she receives 100% of the matrimonial home. I had hoped for a common approach. That's not happening.

    My questions have to do with federal pensions. I'm a retired federal civil servant. My wife is not yet retired from the federal public service. I have the Request for Pension Benefits form 2488 and the accompanying Statutory Declaration form 2483. I'll complete 2488 with me as both the applicant and plan member so as to learn the value of the plan and, I understand, how much may be transferred. Can I fill out another 2488 with me as the applicant and my wife as the plan member so as to learn the value of her pension. I assume knowing the two totals is needed to complete Ontario's Financial Statement form 13.1

    Your help and comments are appreciated. Thank you.



    C

  • #2
    Both you and she need to fill out separate financial statements. She cannot get around doing that.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, you can apply to find out her pension value as a legal spouse, even when separated. The pension admins federal and provincial send the values to both spouses, regardless of who applied to find out the amounts.

      With federal pensions, you will then need to send it to an actuary to find out the family law value if you reside in Ontario.

      Ontario pension plans do this for you, but it's not the case with federal. Federal gives you the maximum transferable value only (which is about half the full amount then the family law value calculations need to be applied by an actuary).
      Last edited by OhMy; 01-04-2015, 12:22 PM. Reason: Added info

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you both. I didn't realize that I would still need to go to an actuary.

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        • #5
          If your pension is larger, you can motivate her to initiate the valuation by proposing that you you skip valuation and each keep your own pensions. "Just to keep things simple and avoid extra fees."

          Comment


          • #6
            My pension is larger than her future pension. My pension is slightly larger than her gross income right now. So maybe your advice doesn't work in my case.

            I'm a newbie on these matters so I have to ask ...

            Why would my spouse agree to skip valuation and we each keep our own pensions. "Just to keep things simple and avoid extra fees." Wouldn't she lose out?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mike62 View Post
              Why would my spouse agree to skip valuation and we each keep our own pensions. "Just to keep things simple and avoid extra fees." Wouldn't she lose out?
              Yes, she would. This tactic is designed to get her cooperating with financial disclosure so she can avoid losing out.

              And you don't have to have pensions valuated by an actuary if you are dividing both pensions appropriately. You only need to know the accurate number if you are balancing a pension against another asset.

              Talk to your pension administrator about getting the value of your wife's pension. I think you can do that as a spousal inquiry.

              Comment


              • #8
                Looks like "keeping it simple" won't work well in your case since you have significant difference in your pensions.

                AFAIK, if you file in court with your completed Financial Disclosure, you will force her to engage. As part of her disclosure she will have to provide you with her statement. One caveat ... since that separation of pension depends on actuarial calculations, to do a true apples to apples comparision, both of you must request the respective statements either at the same time or very close to each other. If you do yours now, and she does it in September ... you won't be comparing apples to apples. And they (pension plans) only want to do this once per year.

                As far as get getting 100% of the matrimonial home ... not sure how she imagines that unless she plans to buy you out of it.

                One more point about pensions in general, an ex spouse can at any time make a claim against your pension (employment or CPP). So make sure you do not trade away pensions against some other asset in your separation agreement. For example, as part of your separation agreement, you may agree to give her 100% of the matrimonial home in exchange for her not laying any claim on your pension. However, at any point in the future, she can go directly to the pension plan and ask for her share of your pension and she will get it. Only recourse you may have is to file your own claim against her pension. Since your pension would be higher, you would be worse off in that scenario anyway. Just something to keep in mind.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think that I'm ok with the pension evaluations. Spouse and I have the same pension administrator. Yesterday I submitted to that office two requests for benefits information division information. Enclosed were two statutory declarations. For info request for spouse's info stat decl had to be notarized.

                  Spouse does not want to have matrimonial home. Her view right now is the home has too many memories. Nor, she tells me would she ever pay me a cent for it.

                  Spouse knows her entitlement is half the value of the house. Problem is she feels she has put more sweat equity into making the house a home. So she wants the other half as well. Nor, does my spouse feel she should settle for a lesser valued house than the one we now own. I know her positions are unfounded. Nonetheless, her views contribute to why I want to go to a meditator. That route might lend itself to finding a creative financial solution to this matter that looks after both of our interests.

                  I see from your last point I need to keep my eyes wide open. Thanks.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ottawa_divorce_dad View Post
                    Looks like "keeping it simple" won't work well in your case since you have significant difference in your pensions.

                    AFAIK, if you file in court with your completed Financial Disclosure, you will force her to engage. As part of her disclosure she will have to provide you with her statement. One caveat ... since that separation of pension depends on actuarial calculations, to do a true apples to apples comparision, both of you must request the respective statements either at the same time or very close to each other. If you do yours now, and she does it in September ... you won't be comparing apples to apples. And they (pension plans) only want to do this once per year.

                    As far as get getting 100% of the matrimonial home ... not sure how she imagines that unless she plans to buy you out of it.

                    One more point about pensions in general, an ex spouse can at any time make a claim against your pension (employment or CPP). So make sure you do not trade away pensions against some other asset in your separation agreement. For example, as part of your separation agreement, you may agree to give her 100% of the matrimonial home in exchange for her not laying any claim on your pension. However, at any point in the future, she can go directly to the pension plan and ask for her share of your pension and she will get it. Only recourse you may have is to file your own claim against her pension. Since your pension would be higher, you would be worse off in that scenario anyway. Just something to keep in mind.

                    In Ontario legislation was implemented regarding pensions and marriage breakdown in Jan 2012. Any parties doing their divisions after that date, even if separation occurred before it, this legislation now applies for couples seperating in Ontario.

                    The purpose of the legislation is to compare 'apples to apples'.

                    Provincial and private plans in Ontario are required to provide a member or their spouse with the family law value.

                    Federal plan holders or their spouses get a maximum transferable value only and must be brought to an actuary to have the Ontario family law value calculations applied. So, regardless if you are weighing a private pension plan against a federal one, the end result is 'apples to apples.'

                    The date of when you request the value from your plan won't change it. What determines the rates for Calculation are the date of marriage and the separation date. The values are set to use by CANSIM

                    https://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/en/pensio...px#calculation
                    Last edited by OhMy; 01-07-2015, 10:33 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ottawa_divorce_dad View Post
                      One more point about pensions in general, an ex spouse can at any time make a claim against your pension (employment or CPP). So make sure you do not trade away pensions against some other asset in your separation agreement. For example, as part of your separation agreement, you may agree to give her 100% of the matrimonial home in exchange for her not laying any claim on your pension. However, at any point in the future, she can go directly to the pension plan and ask for her share of your pension and she will get it. Only recourse you may have is to file your own claim against her pension. Since your pension would be higher, you would be worse off in that scenario anyway. Just something to keep in mind.
                      This sounds scarier than it is, though it is still somewhat scary.

                      If you do not divide off the pension for the full amount your ex is entitled to (half the amount accumulated between marriage date and separation date), they can come back later at ANY time, and ask for it to be divided properly. UNLESS you have a separation agreement or court order that proves to the pension administrator that other assets were given instead of the pension amount, they will divide off the pension and give it to your ex. So if you do not divide the pension fairly, make sure what you gave your ex instead is WELL-DOCUMENTED.

                      In the example above, if you give her the entire matrimonial home in exchange for keeping your entire pension, you'd better make sure that this is well-documented in the separation agreement, and that the amount of half the home is equal to or more than what her share of the pension would be. If not, they will give her the difference. In that case, you would want a proper actuarial valuation of it to have been done.

                      If you have a federal pension, and you do not do equalization perfectly or document it correctly, it could come back to haunt you.

                      Another thing to know about federal pensions is the survivor benefit. If you separate but do not get the legal divorce, your ex can still claim your benefit if you die. Instead of it going fully to a new common-law partner, it's divided by how long each relationship was. If you have a federal pension, that last step of divorce is an important one.

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                      • #12
                        There is plenty to be aware of. Thank you for the post.

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                        • #13
                          The pension benefits reports came back very quickly.

                          Mine was the first back. I thought oh oh when I saw the max amount figure transferable from me to spouse. My worry was eased when I saw spouse's transfer figure. Her amount is lower. The difference is 110k.

                          Now at least I have figures to take to the mediator. I'm ready to move in that direction, but spouse feels going straight to court is the best option.

                          I'm praying for divine inspiration to change her stance.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Offer to pay for the mediation intake, and first mediation session.

                            Tell her that you will be more than happy to show up in court if the mediation doesn't work out, but that you owe it to each other to duck the expensive mess of a courtroom.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mike62 View Post
                              The pension benefits reports came back very quickly.

                              Mine was the first back. I thought oh oh when I saw the max amount figure transferable from me to spouse. My worry was eased when I saw spouse's transfer figure. Her amount is lower. The difference is 110k.

                              Now at least I have figures to take to the mediator. I'm ready to move in that direction, but spouse feels going straight to court is the best option.

                              I'm praying for divine inspiration to change her stance.

                              To get accurate figures and the family law value and tax implications on both pensions, they need to go to an actuary (for federal pensions).

                              The max transferable total that's shown is only 50% of the pension amount accumulated. So if there is a 110k difference, without all the calculations etc, your net worth is 220k more then hers. A mediator will need the family law value.

                              Comment

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