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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #1  
Old 07-15-2013, 09:54 PM
keepmovingforward keepmovingforward is offline
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Default Good case for 50-50 ?

Here's my situation:
I'm the husband.
Been officially separated since Feb 2013
We have exchanged financials but are currently waiting for her lawyer to get back from a leave. VERY SLOW. Haven't exchanged offers yet !
Still living in matrimonial home, in the basement
2 boys 9 and 7
Combined incomes of $200K. BOth professionals. Wife makes more.
I am very involved with the boys because my wife works more than I do and has a very involved job. My job is more flexible.
I get the boys to the bus stop in the morning 4 out of 5 days. UP, dressed, fed, backpacks, teeth, etc...
I pick up the boys form after school latchkey 3-4 out of 5 days around 4:30pm.
I make sure the kids have done their homework and help with it if needed after we get home.
I will set the table, do dishes, make some dinners, depending.
She generally leaves at 5:45am and comes home at 5:20pm or later.
She does most of the grocery shopping, plans most of the meals, cooks most of the meals, does most of the laundry. I help out with all of that.
I do most of the hockey practices and games. Oldest plays travel.
I have spent a lot of time with the boys and have a very close relationship with both boys. As does she.
I want 50-50 access and sharing of expenses.
She wants custody and me to pay her child support.
She says every other weekend is the standard. The kids need to sleep in the same bed. They need stability. We need to do what's in their best interests. Think about the children. They can't be split between 2 houses.
I expect we would both live in the same school district and the kids will continue to go to the same school. I believe this is best for the kids.
Yet, she has already said she will have to put them into 3rd party care more if she gets custody. Before school earlier and picking up later due to her job. If I have them half the time at least they wouldn't be at 3rd party care as long.
My lawyer will not talk about my chances. All he will say is I have a good case. He is very experienced (20+y). He likes to take things slow.
She is very firm on not having 50-50. But I don't believe she is talking to people who have been through the system. And she has got to be telling her lawyer that she is the primary caregiver and deserves custody.
I can't believe her lawyer would push this thing to court. Maybe she will tell my stbx later what the court system is like.
Most people I talk to say there is no way she is getting custody or anything more than 50-50. We both make good money, and we both have been a significant part of the boys lives.
We are actually living fairly harmoniously all things considered. A couple of arguments. But then again everytime I disagree with her she says I am yelling at her...
Questions:
What does it mean when my lawyer says "time is on your side"...
She is keeping notes on me. I have read some of them and let's just say they are rather beign. But anytime we discuss something it's all about me storming and yelling and attacking. Yet, I don't remember anything like that. Do these notes mean anything ? She never mentions what kind of father I am in these notes. Funny that. SO, is her lawyer telling her to keep these notes to get the % from 50% to say 30% ?
She says I will be paying her court costs if I don't accept her first offer. huh ?
Do I have a good case for 50-50 ? I just want to make sure the boys have their father in their lives as much as possible.
We have always been equal partners. Seems to me that should continue but she doesn't see it that way.
How can she make the argument she is primary caregiver ?

Hopefully the process will start up again in 2-3 weeks. That's when I believe it will get a little more tense when I hold my ground on 50-50.

Maybe some of the veterns on the forum can answer my questions and give an analysis of my situation.
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2013, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
I want 50-50 access and sharing of expenses.
You have an excellent case for shared custody.
Quote:
She wants custody and me to pay her child support.
She says every other weekend is the standard. The kids need to sleep in the same bed. They need stability. We need to do what's in their best interests. Think about the children. They can't be split between 2 houses.
There is nothing specific to your children. The argument she is making would have to apply to all children, and would mean that no one should have 50/50.

I am not being trivial. The courts don't listen to arguments like that. What works for YOUR children? Is there some special need for them to be in one home? I doubt it. A judge would not take such an argument seriously. Shared custody is very common now, and all of these arguments are known to be false.

That doesn't mean that you ignore them; you address them in your answer, but your arguments for shared will be far stronger.
Quote:
I expect we would both live in the same school district and the kids will continue to go to the same school. I believe this is best for the kids.
This is very important and should be a focal point of your parenting plan. In Ontario, it is required to have a parenting plan, which details exactly this sort of thing. Also it should detail things like childcare, who takes them to hockey, doctor, dentist, who cares for them when they are sick, etc.
Quote:
Yet, she has already said she will have to put them into 3rd party care more if she gets custody. Before school earlier and picking up later due to her job. If I have them half the time at least they wouldn't be at 3rd party care as long.
Try to get this in writing if possible. Try to limit your communication now to email so that you can have a record of comments like these.
Quote:
My lawyer will not talk about my chances. All he will say is I have a good case. He is very experienced (20+y). He likes to take things slow.
This can be good or bad. You are living in the mat home in the basement. This can become a toxic situation very quickly. Month after month of sending letters, requesting this statement or that, will get you nowhere, but it will cost you money each time a lawyer sends a letter.

On the other hand, an experienced lawyer can save you money by knowing the answer instead of having to charge you hours of billing in order to research it. They can know when the other side is full of fluff. They can know when to draw the line and not back down, or when moving your position a little will reach a settlement.
Quote:
She is very firm on not having 50-50. But I don't believe she is talking to people who have been through the system. And she has got to be telling her lawyer that she is the primary caregiver and deserves custody.
She will tell her lawyer that she takes care of them 24/7 and somehow finds an extra 10 hours a day to work and support the entire family while you party.
Quote:
I can't believe her lawyer would push this thing to court. Maybe she will tell my stbx later what the court system is like.
The lawyer works for your ex and will take it to court if your ex is paying for that service.
Quote:
Most people I talk to say there is no way she is getting custody or anything more than 50-50. We both make good money, and we both have been a significant part of the boys lives.
If you stand your ground, keep being involved with the children, document your involvement, and make a proper case, you will get 50/50.
Quote:
We are actually living fairly harmoniously all things considered. A couple of arguments. But then again everytime I disagree with her she says I am yelling at her...
Seriously, you have to stop engaging with her. She will bait you into arguments and before you know it you will facing a court order for exclusive possession, or worse.
Quote:
Questions:
What does it mean when my lawyer says "time is on your side"...
Status quo. If you are in a position to state that you are truly separated, then you are already doing joint custody and shared parenting. Make sure you have a lock on the door of the room you sleep in. Move everything you own out of the bedroom. Make sure you change you change your passwords to random sequences. Consider the "security questions." Your mother's maiden name, the street where you lived, etc. Your ex likely knows all the answers. Close all joint accounts. Freeze any joint credit. Separate you car insurance. Do everything you can now to show that you have separated from her.
Quote:
She is keeping notes on me. I have read some of them and let's just say they are rather beign. But anytime we discuss something it's all about me storming and yelling and attacking. Yet, I don't remember anything like that. Do these notes mean anything ? She never mentions what kind of father I am in these notes. Funny that. SO, is her lawyer telling her to keep these notes to get the % from 50% to say 30% ?
Probably. Don't engage with her. Don't discuss things. If she asks you something, don't give her reasons because she will use those reasons to prolong the argument. "What do you mean you are going to such and such Friday night? You don't need to do that..." Don't tell her what you are doing Friday night, just say no. Hopefully you get what I am saying here. When you give someone a reason, you give them something to argue against.

Don't get into these conversations in the first place. Your marriage is over, don't get caught up in constant conflict, the conflict will not be resolved.
Quote:
She says I will be paying her court costs if I don't accept her first offer. huh ?
She is trying to bully you. Don't get legal advice from your ex-wife.

Court will work like this: You should be sending her an offer as well. The offer should be reasonable and close to what you believe a court will decide.

When there is a decision it will be on several issues. If she "wins" one issue, and you "win" one, there will be no costs awarded. If you can show you made an offer that was similar to what was "won", you won't pay costs. Probably she will. What you are seeking is completely reasonable. Don't worry about costs. You have to make your case according to what you think is best, and stand your ground.
Quote:
Do I have a good case for 50-50 ? I just want to make sure the boys have their father in their lives as much as possible.
You have a very good case for 50/50, but you must continue to build it. If the kids are sick, take the day off and take them to the doctor. Then get an attendance record showing that you did this. Factual proof to back up your claims.
Quote:
We have always been equal partners. Seems to me that should continue but she doesn't see it that way.
How can she make the argument she is primary caregiver ?
She can't. "Primary caregiver" would only apply if she was a stay at home mom, which she is not. You should be happy if she puts this into her court application, because it will make her look like a fraud.
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2013, 10:58 PM
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You sound very reasonable and evenhanded, in acknowledging that both you and stbx are caring, involved parents (quite different from some of the posters here who constantly denigrate their ex's parenting). Make sure that your lawyer stresses these qualities in his interactions with your ex's lawyer. The fact that you are willing to share custody (with all the headaches and hassles of dealing with the other parent frequently) while she is not willing, adds weight to your position. "We have always been equal partners in parenting and I would like to see us continue to be so" = gold.

From what you've described above, I can't see how she could make a convincing case for sole custody unless there's some huge piece of the story missing. Courts no longer automatically assume that the mother has some sort of right over the father.

Just keep documenting everything you do with the kids, as recommended above, and don't let her intimidate you with legal talk and insinuations when she clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. If shared custody is the best option for the kids in this situation, keep sticking to it and don't be distracted by your ex trying to provoke you into conflict. It sounds like your position is strong and you are reasonable.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:00 PM
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Great reply Mess.

keepmovingforward - good post - very informative.

Its simple to me.

1. 50/50 custody and access of kids - equal in all areas (that means the word 'primary' is not used in any way).
2. Best schedule is 2/2/5 (meaning you always have them Mon/Tues she has them Wed/Thurs and you alternate weekends)
3. CS using offset method and updated EVERY year July 1, based on previous years income (normally determined by tax returns)
4. Split everything acquired during marriage 50/50 (by value - who keeps what is not relevant) - this means all assets and debts including pension and retirement, the boat, credit cards - EVERYTHING - regardless of whose name is on it (some special rules for matrimonial home and inheritance), furniture, ...
5. Spousal support - the only thing that can be complicated - if neither of you really sacrificed for marriage and both worked mostly full time, I don't see that you should ask for this and according to SSAG you may not get anything. So good, this is a non issue.

She will lose if she goes against 50/50. But given the importance of it, you have to fight for it.

Don't let the lawyers walk away with your family equity - be as clear as possible to your ex that you will never settle for anything other than the above (especially 50/50 and CS) and she will lose this fight as it is in the best interest of the kids and very common these days.

Don't give up anything simply because you want to equally raise your kids (like offset CS or equity or taking on debt etc) Her being the mom has no bearing these days and if you are smart and follow advice here you WILL get 50/50 and offset CS.

Your kids need you - just the fact that you are more involved, she works more, yet she wants to take the kids away from you speaks volumes that at the least they need you at least as much as her.

It should all be so simple...but for some it is not. I have my 3 kids 50/50 and all finances are settled long ago...but my ex has just hired her 4th lawyer and I just received yet another first lawyer letter full of bs. I'm not divorced, but I'm happy that I have been there for my kids 24/7 mentally and 24/3.5 physically
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
We have exchanged financials but are currently waiting for her lawyer to get back from a leave. VERY SLOW. Haven't exchanged offers yet!
If you have the financials and are confident she's not leaving anything out, you can move forward on some things without waiting for lawyers. The more you can work out on your own, the less you have to pay them! Start exchanging emails in an attempt at negotiating the four basics of separation (Equalization, Child Custody, Child Access and Spousal Support).

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
Still living in matrimonial home, in the basement
Buy and use a digital recorder at all times. Have it on, in your pocket, secretly recording, and download regularly to a computer she has no access to. It won't necessarily give you an advantage, but it will certainly save you from being at a disadvantage in a he-said-she-said situation such as her falsely accusing you of domestic violence to get you instantly out of your house and away from your children. You might think your ex would never do that, but exes have a funny way of not being the person you married anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
Combined incomes of $200K. BOth professionals. Wife makes more.
Highly unlikely either of you would owe the other spousal support then. Cross off one thing to argue about!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
2 boys 9 and 7
I am very involved with the boys because my wife works more than I do and has a very involved job. My job is more flexible.
I get the boys to the bus stop in the morning 4 out of 5 days. UP, dressed, fed, backpacks, teeth, etc...
I pick up the boys form after school latchkey 3-4 out of 5 days around 4:30pm.
I make sure the kids have done their homework and help with it if needed after we get home.
I will set the table, do dishes, make some dinners, depending.
She generally leaves at 5:45am and comes home at 5:20pm or later.
She does most of the grocery shopping, plans most of the meals, cooks most of the meals, does most of the laundry. I help out with all of that.
I do most of the hockey practices and games. Oldest plays travel.
I have spent a lot of time with the boys and have a very close relationship with both boys. As does she.
I want 50-50 access and sharing of expenses.
She wants custody and me to pay her child support.
Many women like money and many women think that the children are an extension of them and go where they go. This will only happen if you roll over and let it or otherwise screw up. The easiest, cruellest way for her to manipulate it into happening is to accuse you of assaulting her, which will lead to your arrest and removal from the house and bestowing of a no contact order, which gets you out of the house and unable to see your children. Time goes by at the pace of law, and eventually your ex has a status quo of being primary parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
She says every other weekend is the standard. The kids need to sleep in the same bed. They need stability. We need to do what's in their best interests. Think about the children. They can't be split between 2 houses.
Standard from twenty years ago, maybe. Unless you screw up somehow, this is highly unlikely nowadays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
I expect we would both live in the same school district and the kids will continue to go to the same school. I believe this is best for the kids.
Yet, she has already said she will have to put them into 3rd party care more if she gets custody. Before school earlier and picking up later due to her job. If I have them half the time at least they wouldn't be at 3rd party care as long.
You definitely have a good view of what is best for the children, while she is still labouring under hating you more than she loves the children. Hopefully she'll get over it before you have to push her to court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
My lawyer will not talk about my chances. All he will say is I have a good case. He is very experienced (20+y). He likes to take things slow.
Slow may be good, as it gives you more opportunity to gather documented proof of your extensive involvement in the children's lives to counter your ex's demands. On the other hand, it also gives him more opportunity to bill you. The first thing your lawyers did was see your beautiful incomes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
She is very firm on not having 50-50. But I don't believe she is talking to people who have been through the system. And she has got to be telling her lawyer that she is the primary caregiver and deserves custody.
I can't believe her lawyer would push this thing to court. Maybe she will tell my stbx later what the court system is like.
Lawyers do what their clients instruct, and may be telling your ex that court would be required to get what she wants, knowing that negotiating isn't going to get there. Court certainly is where the most legal fees come from!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
Most people I talk to say there is no way she is getting custody or anything more than 50-50. We both make good money, and we both have been a significant part of the boys lives.
Are any of these people mutual friends who can mention the same thing to her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
We are actually living fairly harmoniously all things considered. A couple of arguments. But then again everytime I disagree with her she says I am yelling at her...
Get that digital recorder going (and of course be sure to keep your voice calm!) so you can later prove that you were not yelling or confrontational if necessary. Bring all touchy subjects to email negotiations. You both may be calmer that way, and it gives you documentation of her demands and responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
What does it mean when my lawyer says "time is on your side"...
The longer you continue to be an equal (or more) parent because you are in the same house (keep a journal! document everything!) the better your chances of keeping that status.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
She is keeping notes on me. I have read some of them and let's just say they are rather beign. But anytime we discuss something it's all about me storming and yelling and attacking. Yet, I don't remember anything like that. Do these notes mean anything ? She never mentions what kind of father I am in these notes. Funny that. SO, is her lawyer telling her to keep these notes to get the % from 50% to say 30% ?
She's trying to do her own version of gathering documented proof that supports her position. It's good advice, except that it should be true evidence, of course. But you'll have your digital recordings that can prove you weren't yelling and attacking, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
She says I will be paying her court costs if I don't accept her first offer. huh ?
The loser pays the winner court costs if the judge's decision in court was close to what the winner previously offered to the loser that the loser chose to reject. So if her offer was unreasonable and yours was for 50-50 and you get 50-50, she's the one who'll be paying YOUR costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
Do I have a good case for 50-50 ? I just want to make sure the boys have their father in their lives as much as possible.
We have always been equal partners. Seems to me that should continue but she doesn't see it that way.
How can she make the argument she is primary caregiver ?
Because she's thinking with her I-hate-you mindset and not about what is best for the children. Hopefully she'll have a wake-up on her own as she adjusts to separation, otherwise a court will give it to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
Hopefully the process will start up again in 2-3 weeks. That's when I believe it will get a little more tense when I hold my ground on 50-50.
It most likely will, yes. Patience, instead of pushing the issue, could be wise and productive for you (while protecting yourself!). It sounds like she needs time to adjust to the idea of separating from you. Her actions are those of either a sexist woman who believes that men are inferior parents, or those of someone trying to punish their ex for the breakup and not seeing that this hurts the children. All you can do is remain calm, keep your focus on the children's best interests, remind her that arguing just puts your mutual money in the hands of lawyers. Don't sound the least bit accusatory when you do this.

Have you tried mediation, or did you jump right to lawyers? Lawyers like rich clients, but there are other options you may want to investigate first.
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Old 07-16-2013, 08:49 AM
HammerDad HammerDad is offline
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Also, you mention she is journaling what is going on, you call it benign. But you also need to journal your involvement - with the kids!!!

Keep a daily journal of what you did. If you got them up and out to school, you journal that. If you did breakfast and made lunches, you journal it. Same goes for:

picking them up
helping with homework
making dinner
getting to bed
getting them to their sports/activities

etc etc. You get the point......

The reason it is important for you to do this is simple, while it is all nice and good to say you do those things, what evidence to you have to prove you do those things? Unless you have affidavits from all of the individuals you are involved with stating you do those things, guess what, your ex will likely says she does them as well. So you need to show/prove that you are involved and not allow yourself to be drawn into he said/she said.

But remember, this journal is about what you do for the kids, not what your ex doesn't do. You must keep it child focused. You only input info relating to the kids. Who cares what the ex does. Let her keep her own journal.

Stay child focused. Don't speak to the ex unless it relates to the immediate needs of the kids. Otherwise, take it to email. Keep all emails child focused and very business like. Like each email is being sent to the judge themselves.

Aside from all else, don't take legal advice from your ex or her lawyer. She will try and bully you into getting her way. Once she finds out you won't be giving her what she wants, she will likely not be happy. So be careful. I highly recommend getting a digital voice recorder to keep on 100% of the time in the house. It is only to protect you from a false DV claim, nothing more. You may think your ex would never do that, but once she realizes she may not be getting her way, she may turn evil....don't be that guy who is unprepared.

Search for "The List". It is from an American website, and it is absolutely worst case scenario. But you are best to plan for the worst, but hope for best than be caught blindsided.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:15 AM
keepmovingforward keepmovingforward is offline
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Thank you so much for all your replies. I think I'm on the right path to being able to raise my boys.

I will get the recorder.

We didn't consider mediation yet. My lawyer has mentioned that we would probably be good candidates for it. So I think that's on the path.

I am actually happy with the work and charges of my lawyer so far. He doesn't gouge. Waiting around is not costing me. I have dealt with vendors for 20 years in my job so I know what games feel like.

Is there an interim ruling that can be made ? At this rate I am looking at being in the house a long time if I am waiting for an SA to be signed. Hard to start your life.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:18 AM
keepmovingforward keepmovingforward is offline
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Oh, one other thing.
I have been keeping a journal since Jan 1. Even before the separation.
My journal entries don't mention arguments or mental diagnosis of my spouse or how she didn't agree with me. My notes strictly deal with my involvement with the kids. Hopefully that will come in handy.

But, at the end of the day, putting all the BS aside, bottom line, she's not a traditional mom, and we are both equal caregivers of these children.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:42 AM
HammerDad HammerDad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepmovingforward View Post
she's not a traditional mom
Define traditional mom nowadays..... it will likely be a different definition that 20 years ago, which is likely different than 50 years prior to that.

You both parent, and that is all that matters.

Just stay the course, don't allow yourself to be dragged into any nuttiness and make fair proposals that respect that each of you are equally entitled to parent, which is in the best interests of the kids.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:46 AM
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Be prepared for a long in home separation.

It could take up to two years if she fights.

I just went through it from Aug 2011 - June 2013.

Negotiating didn't work
Being patient didn't work
The only thing that made a difference was court. She eventually ran out of money and had to settle for basically what I offered her before going to court (Shared 50/50 2-2-5-5). Based on your incomes she may not run out of money. Every ex is different so you kind of have to play it by ear.

I did the recorder
I did the log.

My ex assaulted me on numerous occasions and the police and CAS were involved many times. Police would NOT do anything to help me. However I'm sure it had been the other way around I would have been arrested. PROTECT YOURSELF. It is very hard to do but seriously DO NOT SPEAK to her. DO NOT use TEXT MESSAGES. EMAIL ONLY.

It WILL piss her off but you need to PROTECT YOURSELF. Worry about the kids only and continue to be the best dad you can.

Get a defined schedule with her NOW (2-2-5-5). Once the schedule is set do not ask her to do ANYTHING for you. If she asked you to cover her do so and document it.

Feel free to PM me. You can also view all my posts to get an idea of what might happen.

GOOD LUCK

FB
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