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  • #16
    I have a signed, legal contract filed with the courts that states the disposition of the RESP is my business.
    This has the "gramps" signatures on it too?

    The question is if and how I can get disclosure of the amounts available so that I can do my own financial planning
    Well, that is going to be the uphill battle innit?

    As mentioned, the child is just the "beneficiary" of this virtual RESP, the money ain't the child's nor yours....This is indeed a FACT

    Comment


    • #17
      Mess, the kidlet can not obtain a statement without planholder consent. Grandfather is the plan holder.

      If I were you, I would budget for 1/3 of $20,000.00. Because even if I, as the planholder, have invested $100,000 into an RESP for the benefit of my granddaughter, in no event would I release more from the RESP than the balance required to bring the kidlet 1/3 share to her top. (i.e. As grandfather, I would not release more of the RESP in order to give YOU a financial break).

      In addition, if you currently are the payor in your shared parenting, budget to continue paying cs.
      Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FWB View Post
        This has the "gramps" signatures on it too?
        Yes, I already spoke to that, gramps is not a party to the agreement. I got that concept back when you were happily married.
        Well, that is going to be the uphill battle innit?

        As mentioned, the child is just the "beneficiary" of this virtual RESP, the money ain't the child's nor yours....This is indeed a FACT
        red6419 had some useful ideas about that above.

        Comment


        • #19
          Hmmm....

          Just a hypothetical question.

          Gramps opens an RESP and doesn't tell anyone.
          Gramps makes contributions for 17 years, receiving the maximum grant amount.
          D17 goes to university. Gramps takes out all the grant money and spends it on hookers and blow. Gramps then takes out his contribution and spends it on more hookers and blow.
          Does gramps account for this in any way to the government?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mess View Post
            Just a hypothetical question.

            Gramps opens an RESP and doesn't tell anyone.
            Gramps makes contributions for 17 years, receiving the maximum grant amount.
            D17 goes to university. Gramps takes out all the grant money and spends it on hookers and blow. Gramps then takes out his contribution and spends it on more hookers and blow.
            Does gramps account for this in any way to the government?
            As mentioned in the article there are some requirements to ensure that the child is in fact enrolled but not how the money is spent. Other than that it doesn't seem like there is any accountability.

            2. There’s no standard proof of enrolment. Some financial institutions accept official course lists or pretty much anything that bears the school logo and indicates the student is enrolled in an eligible program. Others want an official letter of enrolment (which you may have to pay for). Phone ahead to avoid a fruitless trip to the bank and delay in getting the RESP money.

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            • #21
              I believe it is possible for you to call the government and ask how much grant room remains in the RESP. You would need your daughter's SIN number and be related to her. You would be asking so you know if you can contribute anything further to an RESP you open yourself. Knowing how much grant room has been used up already would give you an idea of how much money grampa has contributed, though you wouldn't know how much the investment has grown beyond the contributions and the grants.

              I see two possible extreme scenarios.

              In the best case, the RESP comes off the top, and should hopefully cover the entire expenses with nothing extra needed from the child or either parent. This would have been the spirit of grampa's generosity had you stayed together with your ex.

              In the worst case, any scholarships or bursaries your child receives comes out of her third, and the remaining 2/3 would be split between you and your ex proportional to income. Grampa's RESP would count towards your ex's share, and you'd have to fork over money for your share.

              This leaves a lot of room for variations of grey in between though. The crux of it will be how cooperative you and your ex are, I would think. If grampa's RESP can cover the entire education costs, they might be inclined to be generous. If it will not, they will likely try to finagle things to maximize what you have to pay.

              With your separation, what started out as grampa's generosity has transformed into him looking out for his daughter's best interests in her disagreements with you.

              One argument you can use if you have to fight this, is that grampa has used all the RESP grant money, and you believed, based on the separation agreement, that his RESP would cover nearly all the costs, so you did not open an RESP of your own.
              Last edited by Rioe; 01-08-2014, 03:11 PM.

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              • #22
                Thanks, Rioe, that is an excellent summation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Gramps cannot take the grant money out without proof to the government that the child is enrolled in post-secondary school. If the child does not enroll is post-secondary the grant money ($500+growth) goes back to the government. The government then uses it to pay politicians expense accounts for hookers and blow.

                  Gramps can take out HIS contribution amount and spend on hookers and blow.

                  When the child goes to school they are taxed on the $500 grant and growth amount.

                  I don't think it matters what gramps contribution is. All you really need to know is what the child's total grant amount is. Being a legal custodial parent you should be able to access this, plus your child must know this and could share with you.

                  Plus the RESP that gramps opened is in the child's name showing gramps contributions and the amount your child will receive in grants. Since the RESP is in the childs name as legal guardian you should have access to it (or at least your child should).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Some general comments:

                    1. The money put into the RESP belongs to "gramps".

                    2. You, your daughter and even the mother of the child does not have a claim to the money put in by gramps.

                    3. Gramps can choose to do whatever he wants with the money. When taken out gramps is also responsible for the taxable income gained on the interest from investments if not used for school in addition to the government contribution.

                    4. I wouldn't recommend taking this one to court at all. As recommended earlier you should be prepared to cover the 1/3 (or 1/2) of the cost and put "gramps" money out of it.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    Gramps cannot take the grant money out without proof to the government that the child is enrolled in post-secondary school. If the child does not enroll is post-secondary the grant money ($500+growth) goes back to the government.
                    But, what money gramps contributed is *gramps money*. It isn't the child, yours or the other parents. In fact, if gramps wants to give the 1/3 (or 1/2) to the other parent and the other parent contributes it you are still on the hook for the 1/3 (or 1/2) of the education. Even if gramps has a pile of money in the RESP the courts under Rule 13 have now way to force gramps or the other parent to produce this disclosure.

                    I wouldn't rely upon "gramps" money to send *your* children to university and/or college. You should rely upon *your* money.

                    Gramps under Rule 13 is not subject to financial disclosure and the money is his. Unless you want to effectively state that gramps is an in-loco-parent and assign a role in custody (joint/sole) and provide access (eg. 33% to him, 33% to mom and 33% to you) of the child to him as well. That is the only way you are not going to get any financial disclosure from Gramps.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    The government then uses it to pay politicians expense accounts for hookers and blow.
                    LOL

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    Gramps can take out HIS contribution amount and spend on hookers and blow.
                    True, and still a LOL. It is gramps money.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    When the child goes to school they are taxed on the $500 grant and growth amount.
                    This I did not know. Makes sense as a student they would have a low income and really, it would wipe the taxable burden on the interest. If they didn't go to school and earned an income then they would have to pay tax.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    I don't think it matters what gramps contribution is.
                    It doesn't and in fact, it is none of anyone's business. If gramps only gives up 1/3 (or 1/2) the money and directly to the other parent so be it. In fact, great he did this as most grandparents don't do this... In fact, most *parents* don't contribute to their children's education in this manner.

                    In the alternative gramps can stop contributing to the RESP and just give the child money directly or the other parent. In fact, if gramps has the capital to do this then, gramps probably doesn't really care about the $500 match and probably has financial advisers that can make up the $500 match quite easy on high yield investments off shore...

                    RESP are not great tax shelters really.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    All you really need to know is what the child's total grant amount is.
                    Easiest way to do this is open your own RESP account.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    Being a legal custodial parent you should be able to access this, plus your child must know this and could share with you.
                    You find this out when you open your own RESP account. Go to your bank and open one. They will then simply get the info from the government. I believe the easiest and fastest way to do this is to open an RESP account.

                    Originally posted by Canadaguy View Post
                    Plus the RESP that gramps opened is in the child's name showing gramps contributions and the amount your child will receive in grants. Since the RESP is in the childs name as legal guardian you should have access to it (or at least your child should).
                    You will. I think the easiest way to do this rather than going to the government, proving you are a parent, faxing nonsense is to basically open your own RESP account.

                    Nothing is preventing you from opening an RESP account... In fact, I am told that the grant money is a race to the finish line. That if you put the full amount into the RESP on Jan 1st at 1:01 AM the grant will show up on your account statement. Gramps can still put money into the RESP but, the grant money will end up in your account not his.

                    It is all a wash as really you are just dealing with the grant money which is a FRACTION of what education costs.

                    Cost of education calculator, RESP Calculator

                    2027 the estimated cost for a 4 year undergrad "living away" will be over 100,000. Bickering over at most $9000+interest of the grant won't be worth the effort or the cost...

                    The grant generally only covers about 6-8% of the total cost of 4 years of school "living away".

                    Also, if gramps has the money to invest into an RESP, gramps also has the means to retain counsel and not just crappy counsel... but really expensive and experienced counsel who will seek costs...

                    Good Luck!
                    Tayken
                    Last edited by Tayken; 01-09-2014, 01:31 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      2027 the estimated cost for a 4 year undergrad "living away" will be over 100,000. Bickering over at most $9000+interest of the grant won't be worth the effort or the cost...
                      By then, it might just all be "virtual" anyway, which might reduced that forecasted amount

                      The government then uses it to pay politicians expense accounts for hookers and blow.
                      Wow...painting them all with the same brush. You got any case law to back it up?

                      It would be anarchy if people could go after "rich" grandparents as part of their separation and divorce...
                      Not just that, it will open up a new can-o-worm....new form of alienation (disowning unborn grand kids )
                      Last edited by FWB; 01-09-2014, 01:41 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                        In the best case, the RESP comes off the top, and should hopefully cover the entire expenses with nothing extra needed from the child or either parent. This would have been the spirit of grampa's generosity had you stayed together with your ex.
                        But, gramps cannot be compelled legally to do this. So I wouldn't depend on gramps doing this at all.

                        Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                        In the worst case, any scholarships or bursaries your child receives comes out of her third, and the remaining 2/3 would be split between you and your ex proportional to income. Grampa's RESP would count towards your ex's share, and you'd have to fork over money for your share.
                        This is not the "worst case" but, I suspect will be the "actual case". Again, the responsibility falls on the *parents* of the child and not the "grandparents".

                        Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                        If it will not, they will likely try to finagle things to maximize what you have to pay.
                        The best advice I can offer is to set yourself up in a financial position where you have your 1/2 or better yet 1/2 to contribute.

                        Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                        With your separation, what started out as grampa's generosity has transformed into him looking out for his daughter's best interests in her disagreements with you.
                        That is the parental dyad and where it ends. He is her parent. He is not the parent of the child going to school. He has no accountability to this child. The parents do.

                        Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                        One argument you can use if you have to fight this, is that grampa has used all the RESP grant money, and you believed, based on the separation agreement, that his RESP would cover nearly all the costs, so you did not open an RESP of your own.
                        I wouldn't recommend this argument. It will fail under Rule 13 as the account is not held by the other parent and the RESP will be cashed out as soon as the Application is served and gramps will simply put the money into grandma and gramps tax free saving account or their investment portfolio.

                        There is no reasonable claim that could be made. What are we going to argue next? That gramps should pay child support and the other S.7 expenses too?

                        Remember, post secondary education is a s.7 expense governed under the Federal Child Support Guide Lines. Suffice to say, you can only claim them against a parent. Combine that with FLR (Rule 13)... It would be anarchy if people could go after "rich" grandparents as part of their separation and divorce...

                        Good Luck!
                        Tayken

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          It's already anarchy when "rich" grandparents involve themselves and their money directly into the divorces of their children. Sadly, there's no accountability or responsibility for this kind of conduct either.

                          You can see this in many cases, including WorkingDad's. In the best scenario they simply become enablers and/or negative advocates. In the worst cases, they become literally antagonists in the "story" of the divorce. I don't have any evidence to support it, but I believe my ex only began to curb her unreasonable expectations and behaviour once her parents decided to stop covering all her legal bills.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mess View Post
                            ...Can anyone who has dealt with RESPs fill me in? Can our daughter get a statement of the worth of the fund, should her grandfather balk at providing one? Are the funds paid out to the student, or to the parent/grandparent?
                            Do you think the grandparent(s) would do this?
                            Is there any mention of the RESP in your agreement/order?

                            Do you exchange tax info/returns with your ex, and does she make significantly less than you?

                            If your ex and grandparents did decide to be devious about the RESP, collapsed the RESP, and somehow gave the "education" money to your ex as cash when the time comes, so they would count it as her contribution, instead of "off-the-top" RESP allocation first... they could do this.

                            If such a scenario happened, I guess you could question Mom forking over large amounts of education money, if her tax return/income doesn't support such numbers.

                            If payments are actually made from the RESP, they would show on your child's tax return under "other income" (line 130):
                            Shown in box 040 or box 042 of TRA slips.

                            That would reference a RESP exists, and I guess you could at least argue that you need proper disclosure of RESP account, so that you can properly pay your share. As other have said, grandparent can't be forced to disclose, but perhaps Mom would look bad, for not properly assisting in disclosing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Until the situation actually unfolds all you can do is be prepared to pay your share. If the RESP gets used as it supposed to great. However if the grandparents wish to screw you over there are probably 1,001 scenarios here in which they could do it. Not worth worrying about until it actually happens.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If the RESP does get acknowledged, or is going to be used, your child needs to know the RESP value she'll be receiving that term/period (forget the exact description), if she's applying for OSAP (you mentioned OSAP), so it's your child that needs this info (if applying for OSAP).

                                Comment

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