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  • #16
    Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
    No, she called and made a second appointment for the Tuesday immediately following the Monday appointment that had just been made.

    I did not ignore her request to attempt to get the appointment on a Wednesday.
    You did not indicate this in your original post. You said she requested Wednesday, or after 4pm, and that you made the appointment for Monday morning. So it sounds like ignoring to anyone reading.

    Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
    She called the Dr and made an appointment for Tuesday, NOT Wednesday.
    She was evidently unable to attend Monday, but still wants to be on top of the situation with the doctor. Seems reasonable to me and good for the kids.

    Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
    I'm curious why you claim I started it?

    I raised a concern regarding my children.

    I informed the ex of my concern and informed her that I would be making an appointment for the children.

    My ex requested the appointment be made on a Wednesday morning but if it wasn't she would attend the appointment anyway.

    I asked about available openings for an appointment. Wednesday was not available.
    This is the first time you've mentioned that you even tried to make a Wednesday appointment. This is why it has looked to us like you are the unreasonable one.

    Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
    Please elaborate on why you claim "I started it" and also how you have determined that I ignored her request?
    We can only go by what you express in your posts, and what we see is someone who is not being accommodating to the ex's requests, and then complaining that she is the unreasonable one when she has to make alternative arrangements. As I said before, if this happens to you regularly, I do believe you should take a closer look at how you express yourself to her, and to a judge later, or you might find that it is indeed you who are deemed to be escalating conflict. You come across as very defensive here, as well as prone to blowing things out of proportion. And if this makes it difficult for us to listen to you, the same thing is going to happen in court.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Rioe View Post
      You did not indicate this in your original post. You said she requested Wednesday, or after 4pm, and that you made the appointment for Monday morning. So it sounds like ignoring to anyone reading.



      She was evidently unable to attend Monday, but still wants to be on top of the situation with the doctor. Seems reasonable to me and good for the kids.



      This is the first time you've mentioned that you even tried to make a Wednesday appointment. This is why it has looked to us like you are the unreasonable one.



      We can only go by what you express in your posts, and what we see is someone who is not being accommodating to the ex's requests, and then complaining that she is the unreasonable one when she has to make alternative arrangements. As I said before, if this happens to you regularly, I do believe you should take a closer look at how you express yourself to her, and to a judge later, or you might find that it is indeed you who are deemed to be escalating conflict. You come across as very defensive here, as well as prone to blowing things out of proportion. And if this makes it difficult for us to listen to you, the same thing is going to happen in court.
      I did not get her request regarding "4:00 PM" until after I had made the appointment. I should not have included that in my original post.

      Yes, I agree it is reasonable for a parent to want to be on top health issues. Would it have been more reasonable if she had contacted me after I had provided her with the details of the appointment and explained that she was now unable to attend an appointment at any time, even if not a Wednesday. I was under the assumption (from her email) that she preferred a Wednesday but that she could attend at any time. Discussing any issue with me directly seems more reasonable than trying to change the appointment without informing me.

      I did first attempt to make an appointment for Wednesday, then for sometime this week, and then for the earliest possible opening. Does the fact the appointment she made was also not on a Wednesday support that Wednesday was not available?

      What do you mean that I "come across as defensive here?" I am simply stating facts that i can support. Are you able to explain?

      Also, what do you mean by blowing things out of proportion? This is just a small issue and example as to what has been going on for over 3 years. It seems almost impossible for one to appear reasonable to outsiders when dealing with such an unreasonable person. Should I concentrate on finding less, but more relevant and important examples of her unreasonableness. Is there a point when the amount and type of evidence relied upon becomes detrimental to one's argument even if they can still be shown to be true?

      Thank you VERY MUCH!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
        What do you mean that I "come across as defensive here?" I am simply stating facts that i can support. Are you able to explain?
        I can explain. The 'tone' of your posts is defensive. Take into consideration that your original post DOES read as if you simply blew her original request off. We all see now it was a misunderstanding - so no big deal.

        People here are doing you a favour by jumping on you for such things - the risk/reward of similar mistakes in front of a Justice is much higher. Take it to heart - learn something. Like how not to appear 'defensive' when the time comes and a Justice is carefully noting your actions and behaviours.

        Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
        Also, what do you mean by blowing things out of proportion? This is just a small issue and example as to what has been going on for over 3 years.
        More of the above response. I know its hard - but it is very important to be as un-emotional as possible in front of a Justice.

        Comment


        • #19
          You were a little unclear as to what happened in your original post - I though Wednesday was an option but you chose Monday because it was sooner.

          Your ex was unreasonable to reschedule your appointment to Tuesday, and the office should not have done so without your permission.

          Either way, your ex seems to be out of line, but you are taking this too seriously and being too sensitive such as asking me to explain my phrase "she let you".

          Though I don't always agree on backing down (as it can lead to further disrespect in the future), you should just cancel the Monday appointment, and go to the Tuesday one with your ex (assuming she agrees to that). That would be in the best interests of your kids.

          Also, don't put the doctor in the middle, but YOU scheduled an appointment with the doctor's office and they should not change it without your permission, so you might want to mention that to them. But assuming this the first time this has happened best to just let that go as they were probably trying to accommodate you and assumed you and your ex were on board with the reschedule.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by NBDad View Post
            Lesson you should take away from this experience:

            STOP showing your cards ahead of time. Make the bloody appointment for YOUR time, take the kids, and inform the ex of the findings AFTER the fact. Assuming anything comes of it.

            If SHE wishes additional information, then SHE can book a followup appointment with the family doctor on HER time.

            You CANNOT co parent with stupid. You cannot force an unreasonable person to act in a reasonable manner.

            Stop trying.

            Routine medical checkups like this DO NOT require communication between parents. IF something comes up over your concerns THEN you communicate it. NOT before. Otherwise, stuff like this happens and you get put into conflict. Conflict feeds crazy. Your ex is allowed to ride the crazy train all she wants, but the only one who can MAKE you buy a ticket is you.

            Get off the train man.



            In very very very unique situations. Upwards of 99% of the time, absolutely NOTHING will be done. If she is flat out lying in her affidavits, simply present factual evidence to show her to be full of shit and move on. It's ONE bullet point, nothing more.

            Dude, I realize what you are trying to do, but you are doing it wrong. You are communicating TOO MUCH in advance.
            Actually NBDad, what I am reading in this thread is a lot of confusing histrionics about a doctors appointment. The quotes that are provided don't really demonstrate to me that there is any "conflict" but, potentially conflicted thinking.

            Furthermore, I am concerned that any parent who wishes to have another parent arrested is not demonstrating restraint. I would not encourage anyone to seek criminal charges unless ULTIMATELY necessary. There is more than enough case law (Shaw v. Shaw) and enough excellent documentation (Eddy, et all...) that provide more than enough statistical arguments that the parent continually seeking criminal charges is demonstrating a highly conflicted pattern of behaviour.

            Familyblah, avoid the use of police to gain control over the other parent. Even uttering that you would do this can be seen as a threat of criminal action in a civil matter which is criminal in itself. Tred very lightly. Vent here but, I highly recommend you do not act on the threat.

            1. As NBDad states it won't be even considered.
            2. What would a family law judge have to say? (Search - Shaw v. Shaw posted to this board and see what could be said/done)
            3. Follow NBDad's sage advice... Don't buy any more tickets to ride on Crazy Train.

            Do not be drawn into the conflict. Stay cogent and relevant in what needs to get done. As frustrating it is to deal with a highly conflicted person, they want you to react with negative emotions.

            Good Luck!
            Tayken

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by billm View Post
              You were a little unclear as to what happened in your original post - I though Wednesday was an option but you chose Monday because it was sooner.

              Your ex was unreasonable to reschedule your appointment to Tuesday, and the office should not have done so without your permission.

              Either way, your ex seems to be out of line, but you are taking this too seriously and being too sensitive such as asking me to explain my phrase "she let you".

              Though I don't always agree on backing down (as it can lead to further disrespect in the future), you should just cancel the Monday appointment, and go to the Tuesday one with your ex (assuming she agrees to that). That would be in the best interests of your kids.

              Also, don't put the doctor in the middle, but YOU scheduled an appointment with the doctor's office and they should not change it without your permission, so you might want to mention that to them. But assuming this the first time this has happened best to just let that go as they were probably trying to accommodate you and assumed you and your ex were on board with the reschedule.
              Le sigh.

              Recrap Part Deux:

              She did not reschedule the appointment he made. She booked a SECOND appointment for the following day, which was also not on a Wednesday as she had requested if possible, proving that the Wednesday request was flexible and he did not in fact purposely book a time that she wasn`t able to accomodate.


              Again, now the children have TWO appointments on CONSECUTIVE days...with the same doctor. She is being contrary and conflict seeking, not to mention completely asshole-ish.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by billm View Post
                You were a little unclear as to what happened in your original post - I though Wednesday was an option but you chose Monday because it was sooner.

                Your ex was unreasonable to reschedule your appointment to Tuesday, and the office should not have done so without your permission.

                Either way, your ex seems to be out of line, but you are taking this too seriously and being too sensitive such as asking me to explain my phrase "she let you".

                Though I don't always agree on backing down (as it can lead to further disrespect in the future), you should just cancel the Monday appointment, and go to the Tuesday one with your ex (assuming she agrees to that). That would be in the best interests of your kids.

                Also, don't put the doctor in the middle, but YOU scheduled an appointment with the doctor's office and they should not change it without your permission, so you might want to mention that to them. But assuming this the first time this has happened best to just let that go as they were probably trying to accommodate you and assumed you and your ex were on board with the reschedule.
                The reason I asked you to explain why you said "she let you" is because I am wondering if any of the information I have provided led you to think that her permission was required for me to make an appointment for the kids.

                For the first time ever she is now claiming that she has been the one to call for appointments for the kids, but this is a statement she cannot support with evidence and one which I can contradict with evidence.

                You guys do not know the details of this case thus far. That is why I think this is a great exercise because it seems a Judge will also not know. I am attempting to show you guys and determine what is considered relevant, reasonable, etc by your responses.

                The recognition that the information I presented (or neglected to present) in my original post led some of you to believe that I was the unreasonable one (some of you may still believe that) is an extremely important lesson in preparing for a possible trial.

                I have considered contacting my EX in an attempt to better this situation, but she seems to have cycled back into her routine of not responding to any of my questions relating to the children. And at the same time, giving me deadlines to provide a response to her inquiries.

                It's maddening!

                You may indeed be correct in that I'm being overly sensitive, but I believe there is a good reason should it be true.

                Thank you!!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by wretchedotis View Post
                  I can explain. The 'tone' of your posts is defensive. Take into consideration that your original post DOES read as if you simply blew her original request off. We all see now it was a misunderstanding - so no big deal.

                  People here are doing you a favour by jumping on you for such things - the risk/reward of similar mistakes in front of a Justice is much higher. Take it to heart - learn something. Like how not to appear 'defensive' when the time comes and a Justice is carefully noting your actions and behaviours.



                  More of the above response. I know its hard - but it is very important to be as un-emotional as possible in front of a Justice.

                  Thank you for the explanation!

                  It is not my intention to appear defensive. I am actually trying to appear emotionally detached by providing only the facts as I see them. I am fully aware and recognize that I am not always successful in my attempts but I am trying.

                  I am an excitable person to begin with (Irish blood).

                  I also have issues with impulsivity and self-regulation arising from ADD.

                  These are not meant as excuses...just more facts.


                  I really do appreciate all the participation in this thread because I completely agree that anyone jumping on me is great preparation for later. I think I tried to explain this before but I may have just thought it lol.

                  Are there specific words or phrases that are contributing to my tone?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                    Actually NBDad, what I am reading in this thread is a lot of confusing histrionics about a doctors appointment. The quotes that are provided don't really demonstrate to me that there is any "conflict" but, potentially conflicted thinking.

                    Furthermore, I am concerned that any parent who wishes to have another parent arrested is not demonstrating restraint. I would not encourage anyone to seek criminal charges unless ULTIMATELY necessary. There is more than enough case law (Shaw v. Shaw) and enough excellent documentation (Eddy, et all...) that provide more than enough statistical arguments that the parent continually seeking criminal charges is demonstrating a highly conflicted pattern of behaviour.

                    Familyblah, avoid the use of police to gain control over the other parent. Even uttering that you would do this can be seen as a threat of criminal action in a civil matter which is criminal in itself. Tred very lightly. Vent here but, I highly recommend you do not act on the threat.

                    1. As NBDad states it won't be even considered.
                    2. What would a family law judge have to say? (Search - Shaw v. Shaw posted to this board and see what could be said/done)
                    3. Follow NBDad's sage advice... Don't buy any more tickets to ride on Crazy Train.

                    Do not be drawn into the conflict. Stay cogent and relevant in what needs to get done. As frustrating it is to deal with a highly conflicted person, they want you to react with negative emotions.

                    Good Luck!
                    Tayken
                    Thank you!

                    I have never threatened to involve the police in this matter. The issue regarding perjury was just something I was seeking more information on. It is not my intention for the children's relationship with their mother to be negatively affected by something I have done. I would not want their mother arrested under anything but extremely necessary circumstances. It is difficult to maintain this attitude 100% of the time when the other person seems to share a contradictory attitude.

                    My EX has called the police on at least two occasions. I have redacted copies of the police reports. They were deemed non-criminal and simply an argument between two people involved in litigation. My EX has referred to the incidents repeatedly in her affidavits implying that they were criminal acts perpetrated by me and that she was the victim.

                    She has also threatened to call the police on other occasions.

                    I will make a note of Shaw v. Shaw. I most likely already have it bookmarked.

                    My EX has accused me of harassing her by sending her emails asking specific questions regarding issues concerning the children.

                    I will send an email with a few questions.

                    She responds to what she wants and ignores the rest.

                    I ask her about the issues she didn't respond to.

                    She accuses me of harassing her.

                    Simply answering the question or stating that she does not wish to discuss it would be more reasonable and effective wouldn't it?

                    Do I ask once and then let it go? Do I make only a 2nd request and then not ask again whether she responds or not.


                    How does one get off the Crazy Train? How does a self-represented party continue to effectively co-parent with an unreasonable person who I guarantee is being directed by her lawyer to act in the manner she is acting?



                    What evidence could I present here to support my claim that they are being unreasonable?

                    Do I refrain from referring to them as "they"? Is it better to refer to my EX as Ms. _________ and to her lawyer as council? Does one demonstrate more respect, reasonableness and knowledge to the Judge by using specific terms?

                    Everything crosses my mind!


                    Should i put together a timeline of relevant events in this case?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                      Le sigh.
                      lol. 'Les mew.'
                      Pepe Le pew lives on!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wretchedotis View Post
                        lol. 'Les mew.'
                        Pepe Le pew lives on!
                        Ha! Awesome.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Le awesome, mon cherie. Mwha mwha mwha..

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            1. Read "High Conflict People in Legal Disputes".
                            2. Read "It's All Your Fault!".
                            3. Read "Tug of War".
                            4. Stop making problems and start presenting solutions.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              I have never threatened to involve the police in this matter.
                              Excellent. It will only destroy your argument before the court. It is like trying to bring forward "Satanic Ritual Abuse" allegations before the court which in my opinion is the "Natzi" ending to any logical and sane argument.

                              The "Natzi" ending debate rule is roughly - when in a debate with someone and they refer to you as being a "Natzi" or make any relation to what is being debated either in offence to an argument or defence of an argument it immediately identifies the person as being "irrational" for even making the allegation/reference and effectively ends the debate.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              The issue regarding perjury was just something I was seeking more information on. It is not my intention for the children's relationship with their mother to be negatively affected by something I have done. I would not want their mother arrested under anything but extremely necessary circumstances. It is difficult to maintain this attitude 100% of the time when the other person seems to share a contradictory attitude.
                              Let the FAMILY LAW COURTS determine the end results. Perjury is an issue and often dealt with in a very different matter in the Family System. A lot of the "perjury" (false allegations) are washed away but, ultimately are reflected in the decisions that result.

                              Focus on the relevant matters, identify the untruthful statements, and move on. Let the other party drown the courts with irrelivant materials. The most effective solicitors in Family Law say very little and let the other party hurl all the mud. Based on my observations the more mud that is flung it just rots the other party's "theory of the case".

                              You can't blow "hot and cold" at the same time with an argument. What a lot of highly conflicted litigants and their negative advocate solicitors fail to see (See Eddy on this one) is that ultimately, lies have short legs.

                              Truth evolves, you don't have anything to prove. Stick to the truth and the "truth will set you free". The hardest part is not letting the perjury get to you. VERY hard to do.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              My EX has called the police on at least two occasions. I have redacted copies of the police reports. They were deemed non-criminal and simply an argument between two people involved in litigation. My EX has referred to the incidents repeatedly in her affidavits implying that they were criminal acts perpetrated by me and that she was the victim.
                              In Dr. Lawson's theory on highly conflicted people (Borderline Mothers) this represents the architype of the "Waif". I highly recommend you read Lawson's book:

                              Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship by Christine Ann Lawson

                              Kregger and Eddy have more information on the matter.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              She has also threatened to call the police on other occasions.

                              I will make a note of Shaw v. Shaw. I most likely already have it bookmarked.
                              Now more than ever in the matter would be a good time to write up a detailed letter (cogent and relevant with facts not emotions!) outlining every incident for which you have been threatened, quote the wise words of the judge in Shaw v. Shaw, leverage the excellent "truisms" concept put to case law in the much talked about matter concerning WorkingDad's case law, and the clinical texts that support threats of false allegations of domestic violence themselves are psychologically abusive and request they kindly stop.

                              Be sure to mark the letter "WITH PREJUDICE" when sending it and attach the schedules of Shaw V. Shaw, the other case law containing "truisms" and clinical texts and be sure to nicely highlight the materials.

                              Make sure you call out explicitly the schedules so when the other lawyer tries to attach the letter to an affidavit they are forced to include the attachments as well.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              My EX has accused me of harassing her by sending her emails asking specific questions regarding issues concerning the children.
                              Attach this correspondence.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              I will send an email with a few questions.

                              She responds to what she wants and ignores the rest.

                              I ask her about the issues she didn't respond to.

                              She accuses me of harassing her.
                              If they are RELEVANT issues dealing with the children's best interests.. Then it is not harassment.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              Simply answering the question or stating that she does not wish to discuss it would be more reasonable and effective wouldn't it?
                              Not if you respond negatively to the reasons.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              Do I ask once and then let it go? Do I make only a 2nd request and then not ask again whether she responds or not.
                              Here is how you deal with an "avoidant" highly conflicted person.

                              1. Offer a solution (not just the problem) and a time line for which they can respond to the solution and be sure to solicit their advice and tell them you will consider their opinions.

                              2. If they don't respond by the date given, notify them on the final date and time that due to their non-response ("avoidance") to resolving the problem and providing any alternative solutions you are doing as you stated and moving forward with what you proposed.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              How does one get off the Crazy Train? How does a self-represented party continue to effectively co-parent with an unreasonable person who I guarantee is being directed by her lawyer to act in the manner she is acting?
                              You don't co-parent. You parallel parent.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              What evidence could I present here to support my claim that they are being unreasonable?
                              They don't have to be "reasonable" to parent children. Follow the steps above, limit their "avoidance", present solutions (not just problems) and when they are non-responsive notify them that they didn't respond and that you are moving forward with the solution presented to them.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              Do I refrain from referring to them as "they"? Is it better to refer to my EX as Ms. _________ and to her lawyer as council? Does one demonstrate more respect, reasonableness and knowledge to the Judge by using specific terms?
                              The lawyer should be specifically identifying the instructions give and that they are instructions given by the client where the client's opinion. So when the lawyer is being vauge... Just basically state:

                              It is hard for me to determine if the opinions stated in the correspondence are your personal opinions LAWYERSNAMEHERE or that of your client. It is my understanding that you are to follow the instructions of your client in accordance with your governing body's rules and regulations so I can only assume that your personal opinions are aligned to your client's instructions.

                              Originally posted by FamilyBlah View Post
                              Should i put together a timeline of relevant events in this case?
                              Always, but make sure it is RELEVANT stuff.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Wow! Thank you!!!!

                                Comment

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