Top court to hear landmark spousal abuse case

[Mess]

I strongly disagree with the judge that a "reasonable person" would have dealt with it the same way.

She was advised by the police that it was a civil matter; it was a civil matter, she should have gone to court and gotten a restraining order, like any reasonable person would have done. Then the police would have had something to enforce.

Workingdad, I believe "the police contacted her" refers to the undercover officer approaching her when she was asking around for someone to kill her husband. Again, I strongly disagree with the judge here. The custody hearing was days away, it was certainly on her mind for the preceeding weeks. She was asking around for a killer prior to the court hearing and the undercover police man approached her just prior to the court date. She asked him if it could be done "this weekend" (according to the article I read, not the court transcript.) She certainly had some urgency that it be done immediately before the hearing.

[thorns]

I cant see how it can be legal to hire a hit man ever.

[momforever1956]

Until you walk in someone's shoes it is difficult to judge.
That being said, I believe this defence is a very dangerous one and will be abused if one doesnt have consequences for illegal actions. Hiring a hit man is illegal, period.
It also smells of timing, when she finally decided to get rid of her ex, considering she was not living with him......

[mumster1964]

would we even be discussing it if the genders were reversed...what a pile of....

[hadenough]

Most likely, not. But without whipping out statistics, there are a helluva lot more women that die at the hands of their male/ex partners than there are men. Men killing their former (and/or current) partners is happening DAILY, somewhere. Often close to home.

[standing on the sidelines]

Until you walk in someone's shoes it is difficult to judge.
That being said, I believe this defence is a very dangerous one and will be abused if one doesnt have consequences for illegal actions. Hiring a hit man is illegal, period.
It also smells of timing, when she finally decided to get rid of her ex, considering she was not living with him......

Agree with what you wrote. If she would of killed him herself while still living with him then she may have more of a case.

To hire a hit man when no longer living in the house and a court date coming up it sort of reeks of timing. It is premeditated murder.

[hadenough]

True SOS: much different scenario if she had killed him herself, and was still living with him. Many ppl don't know this, but Academy Award Winning Actress, Charlize Theron grew up in South Africa as a young girl with her mom, and abusive, alcoholic father. Charlize's mother shot him (dead) when Charlize was 15, and did not go to prison. Her mom is her best friend and is always front and centre at the Award's night, every year. Murder-for-hire is best left to the Mafia

[Moolight]

This is not a predemited murder as there was no murder.

Desperate people do loose their mind and perform irrationnal actions. She was frame in thinking that was possible instead of being told that was wrong.

How many hit man are they on the street, you would think that it would have been impossible for her to find someone. More I am sure if there was a real hit man, he would have not done it for nothing.

Did she even have enough money or incentive for the hitman to agreed to this.

Is this really worst than Guy Turcotte who killed his two children and got away with it?

.

[mcdreamy]

Workingdad - I was the 3rd of 4 children. I watched my stepfather (married my mom when I was 3), brutalize my elder siblings, beat on my mother in his alcohol/drug induced states, and terrorize each and every one of us. When I was 12, I used to wish him dead - in any means or manner possible. I'm sure my elder brother sometimes wishes he had taken our father out when we were younger and before so much damage was inflicted. And it was a complete dirty little secret, in our house.

The day dear old dad threw a pot of fresh brewed coffee down my brother's face/ body in an angry fit, right then and there I prayed that my brother would finally react and kill him so we could end it.

20 years later -we don't talk about it at family holidays, but when we have family gatherings, I'm sure each of my siblings are thinking the same thing - if one of us had been brave enough, had the courage, that man wouldn't be walking this earth today. It remains our secret.

An abusive house is ruled, and the abuser is in complete control of all dynamics, power and knowledge/secretiveness. Even after leaving, that terror and control remains. I don't know what I would do if I ever saw him again --and I believe, I am a reasonable person. It's been 30 years, I could still kill him--ok, maybe I'm just hoping he goes out extremely nasty and in severe pain. I wouldn't want a simple little heart attack to take him out. That would be to easy.

[hadenough]

Mcdreamy: I totally relate on a personal level to what you experienced. A tormentor, a bully - a brutal evil person. He got close to being taken out. And I mean literally. I too, wouldn't dream of attending my father's funeral and truth be told - hope it's not a simple heart attack. 2 boys on my street growing up were abused by their alcoholic father, as was their mother. She never left him, but the boys grew up - one is a total mess and has been in jail, more than he's been out. The other brother became hugely successful in business. He's a millionaire. When his father became gravely ill a few years back, the wealthy son had to carry him up the stairs. His father looked at him and said "I'm sorry" and the son said "it's too late."

A few years after the father's death, the son went back to the house. His mom still lives there but she was in the hospital briefly. He went into that house and totally fell apart, sobbing uncontrollably. He brushed himself off, but clearly he was/is very traumatized by the memories of his childhood. As for my own "story" - that's another painful recollection. I truly wish I had never known my father, at all. We never forget.

[WorkingDAD]

Workingdad - I was the 3rd of 4 children. I watched my stepfather (married my mom when I was 3), brutalize my elder siblings, beat on my mother in his alcohol/drug induced states, and terrorize each and every one of us. When I was 12, I used to wish him dead - in any means or manner possible. I'm sure my elder brother sometimes wishes he had taken our father out when we were younger and before so much damage was inflicted. And it was a complete dirty little secret, in our house.

The day dear old dad threw a pot of fresh brewed coffee down my brother's face/ body in an angry fit, right then and there I prayed that my brother would finally react and kill him so we could end it.

20 years later -we don't talk about it at family holidays, but when we have family gatherings, I'm sure each of my siblings are thinking the same thing - if one of us had been brave enough, had the courage, that man wouldn't be walking this earth today. It remains our secret.

An abusive house is ruled, and the abuser is in complete control of all dynamics, power and knowledge/secretiveness. Even after leaving, that terror and control remains. I don't know what I would do if I ever saw him again --and I believe, I am a reasonable person. It's been 30 years, I could still kill him--ok, maybe I'm just hoping he goes out extremely nasty and in severe pain. I wouldn't want a simple little heart attack to take him out. That would be to easy.

I am not sure what you trying to tell with this.

Well I have been thought similar situation... When I was small I just run and hide and pee my bed in age of 10-13 (sometimes I need to climb down using balconies from third floor in my underwear). Nothing I could change back than (and keep in mind that was not Canada and there was no CAS) I just asked my mom why we have to go through it or why I have to go through it for that matter. When I get older I respond once (being 3 times smaller)- and you know what miracle happened and he never touched me again...

do I want him to die ? I do not care actually. I left home when I was 18 and never come back. Why would I think about what happened to him? It too big honour for him.

Mom - lost me and obviously divorced him after some time after I left. She was adult. She could change it and stop it - she did not. That was her choice but not mine.

I do not now why and how but there is no hate in my heart - I just do not care. From my childhood I took two main point

1. I know what I should not do as parent and husband.
2. I promised my self never leave my child and let him/her to go through such.

Saying that as I said I would understand her (case what we discussing) if she killed him herself but not going out and look for hit man especially taking into account coming custody hearing.

There is no justification to go after and look for hit man. Such act can not be considered as self defence if we are talking about mentally healthy person.

WB

[hadenough]

I think we veered a little off course on this one. For those of us who have had a bad experience (whether as a child or adult) this thread put (likely a few people, including) me into "recall" mode. It is better to have indifference to the person, (as you described WD) but that's not how most people deal with those ghosts from the past. It is good that we all lived to tell the "tale" and for most of us, we became functional adults and good parents that DON'T hire hit men!! The human spirit endures a lot, that's for sure. WD: you have a good, healthy outlook despite your own personal painful memories. Bad bahavior must be owned by the person who chooses it. A child is never, ever responsible. I wish my mom had moved us away from my father but I know she was afraid of him. (They were separated, but he still tormented all of us.)

I am thankful that there was no physical/sexual abuse towards me. It was psychological torture in essence. FEAR. I can tell you, if it had been physical/sexual abuse, I would likely be in jail, b/c I would've found him and it wouldn't have ended well. My thoughts now are simply: it does not matter to me if he's alive or dead. I would not cross the street to see him, (or maybe I would, to slap him) let alone go find him. He doesn't deserve to know me.

I haven't read up yet on the case in the OP. I don't think she will fare too well on that even if/when it is established she was a victim of spousal abuse.

[mcdreamy]

I am not sure what you trying to tell with this.

Well I have been thought similar situation... When I was small I just run and hide and pee my bed in age of 10-13 (sometimes I need to climb down using balconies from third floor in my underwear). Nothing I could change back than (and keep in mind that was not Canada and there was no CAS) I just asked my mom why we have to go through it or why I have to go through it for that matter. When I get older I respond once (being 3 times smaller)- and you know what miracle happened and he never touched me again...

do I want him to die ? I do not care actually. I left home when I was 18 and never come back. Why would I think about what happened to him? It too big honour for him.

Mom - lost me and obviously divorced him after some time after I left. She was adult. She could change it and stop it - she did not. That was her choice but not mine.

I do not now why and how but there is no hate in my heart - I just do not care. From my childhood I took two main point

1. I know what I should not do as parent and husband.
2. I promised my self never leave my child and let him/her to go through such.

Saying that as I said I would understand her (case what we discussing) if she killed him herself but not going out and look for hit man especially taking into account coming custody hearing.

There is no justification to go after and look for hit man. Such act can not be considered as self defence if we are talking about mentally healthy person.

WB

I responded to you, because I think we are coming from different playing fields, as I suspect was the defendant in this particular case. Either that, or you are much more courageous than I. And my siblings, apparently.

There was no hiding from my father. He'd have come and dragged your ass out from underneath your bed, if he had chosen you as his victim of the day. If you pee'd, he would have beaten you harder. If our mother interjected, he would beat her, too. And, of course, he always kept us in suspense - you never knew who was going to be the victim.

I watched him stab my sister in her hand, 2 inches deep at the dinner table, because she forgot to ask to be excused one night. I watched him break my younger brother's arm because he hadn't stacked the firewood correctly. Running and hiding? and leaving my brother/sisters behind? You don't do that - you remain frozen like a deer in the headlights, and pray it ends soon so that when you wake up in the morning, it's all better. But it never is.

We stopped having any friends and family over when I was about 8. No one came into our house.

What finally pushed us out of the house was my admitting to my grandmother that he had been sexually abusing me for 3 years. That was my only courageous act in 14 years of living with that monster.

I can assure you, you and I were not in similar situations. So, as I said, until you've walked in her shoes, you and I can't understand her reasoning, nor her presence of mind when she made those calls/enquiries.

I do note you are of European background - as was my father. I understand some level of physical authority is more acceptable in Europe than here (at least, that was one of his excuses) - but not the excessive nightmare that was our childhood home.

I also took some major points from my childhood:

• never accept, nor excuse abuse of any kind from any person

• protect my child, no matter what it takes;

• crazy makes crazy - mentally healthy is a fine line, when coming from an extremely abusive relationship

[Rioe]

I just want to point out that there is no statute of limitations on sexual offences against a child. If you were sexually abused before the age of majority by someone, no matter how long ago, you can still report it to police, and there can still be a trial, conviction and prison. Of course, the process can reopen old wounds, but your abuser will not escape his past just because you didn't report it to anyone then. For some, time brings courage.

[WorkingDAD]

I just want to point out that there is no statute of limitations on sexual offences against a child. If you were sexually abused before the age of majority by someone, no matter how long ago, you can still report it to police, and there can still be a trial, conviction and prison. Of course, the process can reopen old wounds, but your abuser will not escape his past just because you didn't report it to anyone then. For some, time brings courage.

Good point. I have heard it to. There is an article on some lawyers website talking about tort actions in family law and there was case like that when abuser was sue for damages long time after the fact. I can find it if someone really needed.

WD